Question About Back To The Future II

[Damian]

I was watching it last night on The Disney Channel for the first time in many years. I still don't quite understand what happened in this one particular scene. It's the scene where old Biff is returning the time machine after having stole it to give his younger self the almanac. When he gets out of the Delorian he breaks off his cane then clutches his chest.
What happened to him right there? Is he having a heart attack?
A couple of scenes later you see him in the forground as Marty and Doc are getting back into the time machine. Again, he's clutching his chest but the broken cane looks to be sticking out from under his arm.

Did he stab himself with the broken cane but I couldn't really tell since it was in fullscreen?

[deepcover]

i always thought the stick was stuck and when he pulled hard it broke and hit him near the stomach area. It's probly one of those parts in a movie that you are not supose to think about.

[The Riddler]

But you HAVE to think about it! I always thought of it as him having a heart attack & just dying right then & there!.....then again, its been awhile since I saw this movie and I'll gladly wait until the DVD release to "recap"!

[Nexus 6]

I've always figured it was a heart attack. However, I heard that there was a scene that was cut that showed Old Biff fading out of existence, so who knows?

[The Riddler]

Originally posted by Nexus 6
.....However, I heard that there was a scene that was cut that showed Old Biff fading out of existence, so who knows?

Which would make total sense since....ah forget it! Too many spoilers & someone'll kick me in the groin!

[Damian]

Originally posted by Nexus 6
I've always figured it was a heart attack. However, I heard that there was a scene that was cut that showed Old Biff fading out of existence, so who knows?

I got this from the message board on the BTTF web site.
I guess I should say **SPOILER ALERT** just to cover my ass.

Many on this board, from the elders, to the newbies, to those in between the two like myself have constantly voiced their opinions about how they feel Old Biff's scene, in which he fades from existence, should not have been cut from the final version of BTTF2. Some even go as far as to include the scene in discussing actual events from the film, as if the scene itself was in fact never cut.

Yet, I for one see Old Biff's death scene hitting the cutting room floor as a blessing in disguise. For you see, had this pivotal scene been included, Marty and Doc would have had to been erased too!

You see, we all know that Biff was erased allegedly because Lorraine shot him sometime in the 90's, but if the ripple effect was able to catch up to Old Biff that quickly, erasing him in 2015 due to and event that occurred in the 90s, then it would have to have included erasing Marty, Doc, Jennifer, and even the DeLorean itself. For you see, in the Alternate timeline, Doc had been committed to an insane asylum in 1983, two years before he ever even invented the time machine.

Therefore, Doc and company shouldn't have even existed in 2015, and had Old Biff erased due to the timeline catching up to the 90s, then surely it would have already traveled over the 80s, thus erasing our heroes and creating a major paradox... Anyone else agree?

[deepcover]

Originally posted by Damian


I got this from the message board on the BTTF web site.
I guess I should say **SPOILER ALERT** just to cover my ass.

Many on this board, from the elders, to the newbies, to those in between the two like myself have constantly voiced their opinions about how they feel Old Biff's scene, in which he fades from existence, should not have been cut from the final version of BTTF2. Some even go as far as to include the scene in discussing actual events from the film, as if the scene itself was in fact never cut.

Yet, I for one see Old Biff's death scene hitting the cutting room floor as a blessing in disguise. For you see, had this pivotal scene been included, Marty and Doc would have had to been erased too!

You see, we all know that Biff was erased allegedly because Lorraine shot him sometime in the 90's, but if the ripple effect was able to catch up to Old Biff that quickly, erasing him in 2015 due to and event that occurred in the 90s, then it would have to have included erasing Marty, Doc, Jennifer, and even the DeLorean itself. For you see, in the Alternate timeline, Doc had been committed to an insane asylum in 1983, two years before he ever even invented the time machine.

Therefore, Doc and company shouldn't have even existed in 2015, and had Old Biff erased due to the timeline catching up to the 90s, then surely it would have already traveled over the 80s, thus erasing our heroes and creating a major paradox... Anyone else agree?

Way to much for me to think about this early in the morning.

[Damian]

Originally posted by deepcover



Way to much for me to think about this early in the morning.

Yeah I know, that's why I'm on my second cup of good ole hot caffiene.

[The Riddler]

A bit mind boggling! I'm sure there aer many other "holes" in these movies! But oh well!

[The Riddler]

OK, I thought about this a bit more & as I see it I wouldn't necessarily use the term "erased" with our heroes....they just wouldn't have been able to time travel. Which would make Doc's appearance in 1985 WITH the delorean non existant!

By the way, I haven't heard anything about Lorainne shooting Biff! Is that something else that was mentioned in the movies & "cut"???

[Damian]

I never heard anything about Lorraine shooting Biff either. To me, if that actually happened wouldn't that suggest a third timeline? The first time line being the reality of Doc and Marty, the second time line being the one where Biff is rich and corrupt (And alive in the year 2015) and a third time line where Lorraine shoots him in the 90's.
There would have to be a third time line because obviously it couldn't happen in the second since Biff is alive and well in the year 2015.

[The Riddler]

Damian,

Yeah, but don't forget Marty & Doc only visited 2015 in the 1st timeline U mention (where all is cozy & well with our heroes). Biff's fazing out was just him catching up to his death in the '90s since he gave the almanac to himself in 55! (U wit' me so far?)

It would be logical to assume the 3rd time line U mentioned can still be part of the 2nd. Biff's richness we witness in BTTFII was in 1985!

The thing I'm confused on now (not counting any supposed "deleted" material) is if Doc was in fact sent to a nut house in '83...the time machine would've never been finished...right??? Man, I have to see the movie again, 'cause I was thinking the newspaper Doc shows Marty (where's he's sent to the nuthouse) was in the late '80s or early '90s sometime (in other words, Doc took a quick trip to the near future to see what the heck happened)! Did I confuse U good now?

[Damian]

You're right about the second timeline being in 85. I don't know why I thought it was 2015. Guess the coffee hadn't kicked in yet.

I agree that he stepped forward in time a bit to see what happened. As for the time machine not being invented if he had been committed. The time machine was a theory he came up with back in 1955. Maybe it was already invented in 83, just not tested.
Wait...that makes no sense. My heads starting to hurt.
If Doc had been committed, why did the Doc from the original 1985 simply disappear when they arrived in 1985A? Which then in turn, Marty, Jennifer, Einstein AND the time machine would all disappear. Thus negating all the changed forcing a universal paradox which would rip the very fabric of time and space.
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Something like that.
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I need a drink now.

[a.bunker]

I always thought that as he was getting out his cane got stuck in the door and he stuck himself in the stomach or side with it, but who knows.

[neps2]

according to the "Secrets of the Back to the Future Triology" Special and VHS, it is the begining of Biff being erased from Existance. The scene was cut (at the video shows the cut scene) Biff clutching his chest hidding behind the garbage dumpster and fadding away as he watches the delorean depart. The voice over said that it was because Loraine had killed him in the Alternate Past.

[Dehrian]

I always thought that the biggest hole was in BTTF3: why go to all that trouble to use the train to get the Delorean Marty brought back up to 88 when they still had the Delorean Doc brought back in the cave, sans damaged gas line?

[Damian]

Originally posted by neps2
according to the "Secrets of the Back to the Future Triology" Special and VHS, it is the begining of Biff being erased from Existance. The scene was cut (at the video shows the cut scene) Biff clutching his chest hidding behind the garbage dumpster and fadding away as he watches the delorean depart. The voice over said that it was because Loraine had killed him in the Alternate Past.

But does this actually make sense? The ripple effect hadn't taken place yet. While he was watching the Delorean depart and clutching his chest, it was still their 2015 reality.

But I guess when you think about it, it makes sense. Old Biff travelled back, gave himself the Almanac which started the changed timeline from the 1955 point on, then he flies back to 2015. I guess the ripple effect Doc Brown speaks of takes time to happen because old Biff flew back to the first reality 2015, not the alternate reality 2015. I guess he flew ahead of the ripple effect. But by the time he got back to 2015, the ripple effect had changed the 90's to the alternate Rich Biff's reality where Lorraine gets a gun and kills him, thus erasing the first reality 2015 Biff.

I guess.
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I need another drink.

[ToejamandEarl]

OK here's my thoughts....I watch these movies religously every Nov. 5....

Precursor -

Marty returned from the past to find that his whole world had changed...His parents were hip and athletic, his brother worked for a nice company, and his sister had a bunch of dates...Marty had no idea what happened....he assumed that things would be the way they were....His life was altered...but his memory was the same as before....He didn't know he even had that 4x4...Things were normal enough in the timeline for him to not be that affected.

Old Biff left his present time 2015 to go back to 1955 to give himself the book...he left 1955 to go back to the future. It seems like he should have been able to travel to whatever time he wanted, but the time line was changing as soon as Biff turned old enough to make his first bet on the horse races....If he was supposed to be dead in the future when he returned, that means he wasn't supposed to live to be that old. So, he couldn't have travelled back in time to give himself the book.... Which creates a paradox....Too complicated of a situation for the writers, because Marty and Doc from the past were still in the original timeline which should have never existed...I think they cut it out and just had him hit is stomach with the caine and left it at that.....Which is still a bit confusing 'cause the timeline didn't catch up to Doc and Marty until they went back to 1985...they actually should have been affected along with Biff...and they should either have not have existed or they should have seen the world change before their eyes...(like the newpaper)

As far a Doc not using the flying delorian that he put in the mine....That would have created another paradox....Marty needed it "intact" to go back to 1885 to get Doc...and eventually to go back to the future...

Now...Unless Doc emptied or used the gas from the gas tank (mine delorian), he should have been able to fill the other car up...and not blown up the manifold using the whiskey...and they wouldn't have needed the train....(marty could have put gas in the mine car in 1955 no problem)

That's my only question....

Everybody follow??

[The Riddler]

Originally posted by ToejamandEarl
....Too complicated of a situation for the writers, because Marty and Doc from the past were still in the original timeline which should have never existed...I think they cut it out and just had him hit is stomach with the caine and left it at that.....Which is still a bit confusing 'cause the timeline didn't catch up to Doc and Marty until they went back to 1985...they actually should have been affected along with Biff...and they should either have not have existed or they should have seen the world change before their eyes...(like the newpaper)

Everybody follow??

No. I still don't know why everyone keeps stating Marty & Doc should've "disappeared" or "not existed". Do U mean since Doc was committed in 1985 (and their were technically 2 Docs walking around in '85?) If that's what U mean, that's COMPLETELY logical!

Though I gotta say the "Good Timeline/2015" Biff still could've given himself the Almanac...THAN succumbed to the alternate reality where Lorraine shoots him afterward (which is what the deleted scene would've represented).

Man, this is getting complicated! But its an interesting thread since I love the movies so!

[Damian]

Originally posted by ToejamandEarl

Everybody follow??

Yep. Good explanation.


Here's something to chew on a bit.

Why doesn't Lorraine from the first altered 1985 (the one where Marty comes back to find all is much better on the home front) remember that the guy that took her to the Enchantment Under The Sea dance, looks and and sounds an awlful lot like...HER SON?

[Monterey Jack]

Originally posted by Dehrian
I always thought that the biggest hole was in BTTF3: why go to all that trouble to use the train to get the Delorean Marty brought back up to 88 when they still had the Delorean Doc brought back in the cave, sans damaged gas line?

1.) The Flux Capacitator(sp?) was damaged when Doc was hit by the bolt of lightning in 1955, thus he couldn't use it to return to the present (the letter he writes to Marty that he receives in 1955 explains this).



2.) Even if the machine did work, if it weren't left in the cave for Marty to find and fix up in 1955, how could he return to 1885 to rescue Doc?

[Damian]

Did some digging and found this real audio clip.

http://www.trilogy3.com/images/bifferased.ram

There are other clips at it's site.


http://www.trilogy3.com/index.cfm?page=cfm/secrets.cfm

[Jerm]

Originally posted by Damian
Why doesn't Lorraine from the first altered 1985 (the one where Marty comes back to find all is much better on the home front) remember that the guy that took her to the Enchantment Under The Sea dance, looks and and sounds an awlful lot like...HER SON?

it had been 30 years and that's a long time to remember trivial details. As the years went by, Calvin must have faded from her memory.

[Damian]

Originally posted by Jerm
it had been 30 years and that's a long time to remember trivial details. As the years went by, Calvin must have faded from her memory.

Possibly...
But it's the night she fell in love with her husband. She remembered in detail the first time they met, meaning the way they met before Marty travelled back to 1955. (What were you doing in that tree anyway George, bird watching?)
Maybe all was lost prior to George sucker-punching Biff.

[Jerm]

Originally posted by Damian
Possibly...
But it's the night she fell in love with her husband. She remembered in detail the first time they met, meaning the way they met before Marty travelled back to 1955. (What were you doing in that tree anyway George, bird watching?)

That may be the reason she forgot Calvin. She fell in love with George, and Marty just wasn't so important. It's been 13 years since high school, and I can't say that I'd clearly recognize anybody if I just ran into them. And with Marty, she watched him grow up, saw how he changed, heard his voice crack...it's not like she ran into him 30 years later, and there he was.

[LBPound23]

Originally posted by Jerm
That may be the reason she forgot Calvin. She fell in love with George, and Marty just wasn't so important. It's been 13 years since high school, and I can't say that I'd clearly recognize anybody if I just ran into them. And with Marty, she watched him grow up, saw how he changed, heard his voice crack...it's not like she ran into him 30 years later, and there he was.

Yep, this answer has somewhat satisfied me, on what had been my biggest hole discovered with the movies. It's still something to think about, but I've seen an explanation like this in the past....and it seems ok to me.

[Jerm]

Originally posted by LBPound23
Yep, this answer has somewhat satisfied me, on what had been my biggest hole discovered with the movies. It's still something to think about, but I've seen an explanation like this in the past....and it seems ok to me.

Every now and then, I make a decent post. And today, that's pretty good, because I think that I've posted Eye's arm like 4 times today...in 3 different threads! But one of them was a special request...

[LBPound23]

Originally posted by Jerm
Every now and then, I make a decent post. And today, that's pretty good, because I think that I've posted Eye's arm like 4 times today...in 3 different threads! But one of them was a special request...

Well, it wasn't the first time I've read such an explanation...but your icon is of Everlasting Gobstoppers, so you rule, in my book!