Criterion - Special or just irrelevant?

[Tyler Durden]

Let me point out before I begin that this is not meant as a, ‘dumper’ thread but as a serious question as to the relevance of what this company is doing and to gauge what other members think.

Having received a copy of, ‘The Royal Tenenbaums’ DVD and also having reviewed nearly every Criterion release that you might care to mention I have come to the conclusion that Criterion are masters of marketing and packaging but not much else. And that their standing as the giants of, ‘special editions’ is somewhat misguided. I should also point out that I absolutely loved, ‘The Royal Tenenbaums.’ I thought it was a fabulous film, brilliantly written, performed and so on. I also love the packaging, which is both tactile and beautifully put together – as are the menus. Indeed the, ‘package’ as such is supremely well executed and masterfully done. But what about the content? This is a Criterion release and they market themselves heavily on presenting historically important films and presenting unparalleled special editions. The transfer may be gorgeous and the soundtrack fine but where are the innovative, exciting and genuinely informative supplements? Not on this release that’s for sure. And not on the last Criterion release either, nor the last, nor the last, nor the last and so on…
In fact, the last release from Criterion that had any supplemental material on it that actually offered some genuine insight and understanding of the film making process in a truly effective way was, ‘Brazil.’ Which is an undoubtedly superb edition. There are other exceptions but we are talking the majority here.

As one pays a premium price for Criterion releases would it not be fair to expect a premium special edition? In the days of laserdisc Criterion stood out, as they were the only company producing, what at the time were thought to be extensive supplements. But now the studios are much more savvy and creative with the supplemental material of a format like DVD where this sort of bonus material is pivotal to the format itself. Just take a look at some of the recent releases from mainstream studios: Pearl Harbor, A Beautiful Mind, Legend and so on and on and on (too many terrific special editions to mention here) that have reams and reams of superb extensive features – not all of them just on effects-heavy movies to bulk it out either. And now compare and contrast these to Criterion releases where the extras are paltry at best. If we are honest I think many would be decrying any other studio for putting out such paltry features and labelling them as, ‘Special Editions’ but Criterion has built up this fanbase through superb marketing and it is, in my opinion, completely without warrant. The, ‘Royal Tenenbaums’ is a case in point. Spread across 2-discs, I was sorely, sorely disappointed with the extra materials. Whilst we get a series of interviews that are entertaining and a, ‘With the filmmaker feature’ – the running time for both these is under an hour. We then have a farcical segment culled from, The Peter Bradley Show’ which is rather dull and runs for 15-odd minutes, all that’s left are 2 deleted scenes, and some still images. There are 2 nice little comedy segments that run for under a minute also and of course the commentary. It took me less than an hour and 20 minutes to run through the lot (apart from the commentary of course.) Now at first sight this might look like a nice edition but this is Criterion, a premium label built on its’ excellence at supplemental material. The extras here offered little insight, it may be shrouded in lovely menu screens but where’s the insight? Where’s the creativity in the actual material? This is not a special edition; it’s a normal release with a few extras tagged on. Look at, ‘A Beautiful Mind’ – this isn’t an effects heavy film either but it’s filled to bursting with terrific supplements that really offers you an insight into the making of and development of the film. Criterion releases pale in comparison next to the excellent standards of what the studios are putting out.

So, why the disappointment that Criterion have no plans to release such and such a film (say The Game.) I think the studios will do a much better job!

Undoubtedly Criterion releases great covers (I love ‘em) but are they really relevant as purveyors of special editions any more? So, come on Criterion, give us some great editions with some meaty extras and something really worthwhile so that your reputation as the, ‘scholarly’ creators of DVD for those who REALLY love their movies is fully justified.

Oh and can Disney please release a, ‘Vista Series’ edition of, ‘The Royal Tenenbaums’ please? I just know it would be better…

Any thoughts?

[vedderstapp]

I do agree, well, to an extent.

I think that Criterion's 'continuing collection of classic and contempory films' or whatever the tagline kinda gets them out of this one. Its important to remember that Criterion are really catering often for movies that otherwise would probably not even get this kind of release, ie. Tokyo Olympiad, Flesh For Frankenstein, etc. while mixing it with the occasional suped-up edition of Traffic or Armagaddon.

I too have the Royal Tenenbaums, and while the disc is not exactly packed with features, it IS treated with a tremendous amount of respect, and it is truly a compliment to the movie, and keeps with what Criterion are trying to achieve. Would a Vista Series do this? Judging by the only one I have, Unbreakable, the answer is no.

I do agree, however, that the recent editions with features are ok-good at best. But could that not be said for 99% of DVDs period? How many more rambling commentaries are there going to be? How many more 'making ofs'? The truth is that many features now I don't even bother with. So few add the film anyway, and I think The Royal Tenenbaums is one that does. In my opinion, Criterion are doing a great job, and while other studios have their 5 Star Collections, or their Vista Series, etc. its a testament to film fans that they exist. Long may they continue.

[LeonardShelby]

TD,

You make some excellent points. I have been a Criterion fan since the days of LaserDisc and have always felt that their products were always superior...until recently. But, that doesn't mean Criterion still doesn't have its strengths. The "studios" have raised the bar in recent months with some brilliant releases such as the Memento SE, Legend SE, A Beautiful Mind AE etc...I think even going back to the fantastic Monty Python & the Holy Grail SE, Mallrats, Clerks, Dogma... these are all brilliantly done DVDs, filled woth more extras than you can shake a stick at!

I think if Criterion wants to remain as "the" ultimate in film releases, they need to start raising the bar themselves. There's no doubt that their film transfers are usually stunning, but the extras are also important to many DVD consumers because they are now expected! Also, their claim to presenting "historically important" films went directly out the window with their release of "Armageddon".

Again I think Criterion does a great job in general...especially with the releases of "classics"! I'd just hate to see them get passed by in this market. Who knows how long the studios will stay true to producing DVDs of quality? They're already pulling 2 disc SEs off the shelves in favor of single disc editions. Criterion at minimum deserves our respect for taking film seriously long before anyone else cared to! I'm not counting them out yet!

[manigrasso]

Tyler, I think you're on the right track. I think Criterion is in a rather unfortunate position, a position that they wouldn't be in had DVD remained a "niche" marker the way laser disc did. Tyler makes a point that other studios are putting out great DVDs on their own. As a result, I don't think any of the major studios want to give up their titles to Criterion, because they know they can make money off it, too.

In the days of LD, the studios knew they could make money off of their catalog titles too, but that it was a negligible profit and not worth the effort, so if Criterion wanted to buy the rights to a movie like "Brazil" or "The 400 Blows" or "The Seven Samurai" on laserdisc...sure, why the hell not? They probably figured the money generated that way would be just as much or more than the money generated from doing their own laserdisc release, with none of the grief generated from production.

Now we live in different times. I would bet nobody wants to give up their catalog titles at all, knowing how well DVD is doing. Not only did it obliterate LD on the sales front, I believe that last year DVD sales figures outperformed VHS sales figures, and DVD is also poised to eventually surpass VHS on the rental front too. Criterion relies on the owners of movies to license those titles. If they can't get the titles, they can't release the DVDs.

This means the only titles that Criterion can nab are either cult-y genre flicks (for which it has to compete with Anchor Bay), or public domain works, which means that they're so old, the odds of finding any promotional material are slim. And now that things are slowing down for them, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have the money necessary to generate new promotional material. And for all the genre fans out there, be warned: I wouldn't be surprised if the same fate befalls Anchor Bay.

I think Criterion's only hope is one which would sour the reputation upon which the company was built: Sell out. Become a boutique distribution arm of one of the majors, like Fox or Paramount. Give them a budget to acquire other titles as well, but otherwise give them access to the library of the studio that snaps them up, then let them do what they do best. I don't remember how to spell this guy's name, but I keep thinking about Laurent Bouzreau (sp?) over at Universal, and the wonderful work he does on their discs. He's probably Universal's go-to guy, and I know any promotional work he does will be entertaining. Criterion needs to become the go-to guy for another major studio. I know they were poised to be this for Buena Vista in DVD's early days, but that probably won't be the case anymore. I think The Royal Tennenbaums was a thrown bone. I think they got Traffic because USA Studios needed a couple of extra bucks in their coiffers before declaring bankruptcy.

[Beware_the_Creeper]

The care that Criterion puts into their releases should be the blueprint by which all other studios judge their DVD releases. The only studios that come close to them, and granted only on an occasional basis, are Anchor Bay and MGM (recent SEs).

The Creeper

[Dom]

I so far only have one Criterion dvd (that I know of from the top of my head): The Rock.
I was disappointed that there aren't any subtitles on this dvd, not even cc
Is this the case for all of their releases?

Otherwise, this is a fine edition. Especially the cover art rocks (pun intended).

[Cap'n Katanga]

My name is Ben. I'm a Criterion junkie. Actually the films they release are, for the most part, films I adore. I haven't seen the Tenenbaums set but if its anywhere near Rushmore's presetation I will be happy. I think they put substance over style by and large. I'd rather have a really thoughtful commentary and text than some HBO making-of any old day of the week. I always know with Criterion that I'm getting top notch Video and Audio and thats really all I care about. The work they've done on the Kurosawa films is tremendous. The recent 2 disc set of 8 1/2 was filled with informative content. Who can honestly gripe about the Beastie Boys Anthology?...one of my favorite discs to throw in and show off the range of DVD.

[Tyler Durden]

Hi Ben

But that's my point entirely - there is no real substance to their extras. I take your point about HBO Specials but I hardly think that the Rashomon release is worthy of the title, 'Special Edition.' For a film of this magnitude and standing the extras were (for me at least) appallingly short in both length and substance. There must have been vast resources available for extra features for a film such as this and yet what was included was hardly impressive. Whilst Criterion commentaries are undoubtedly a highlight of the series they are relied upon far too heavily - I want to see some features with substance. A dissection of the film, it's relevance and influence on the cinema of today. I want some context, some real issues and topics to be covered becasue this is what Criterion sells itself on. As for their transfers: yes certainly these are normally to a high standard but no more than the vast majority of other DVD releases.

I have to say that I was also severely disappointed with, 'The Rock'. The Dts soundtrack was appallingly badly mastered and the extras were an absolute joke. A 3-minute puff piece on the Alcatraz party and a feature on how to pretend to fire a gun with a gurning Kurt Russell?!?!? I mean, what the hell was that all about. It made my skin crawl quite frankly. As Criterion's own blurb says:

"Our supplements enable viewers to appreciate Criterion films in context, through audio commentaries by filmmakers and scholars, restored director's cuts, deleted scenes, documentaries, shooting scripts, early shorts, and storyboards."

Really? And showing us Kurt Russell playing gung-ho with firearms alows us to appreciate Criterion films in context does it?? If this sort of thing was complimented by other extras of substance that wouldn't be too bad. The excerpts from the documentary were good but why just excerpts?? For a 2-disc set this is just not good enough if you ask me, especially when other studios who do not hail themselves as scholars are putting out such damn fine, good quality products.

Anyone else agree about the covers though? They're great!!!

[SeanL]

I have to agree with you on "The Rock". The only thing that made this a worthwhile purchase was that it was a better presentation than the original release.

[Cap'n Katanga]

Tyler,
You make a damn solid arguement. Rashomon was lacking in gravy...but damn aren't you just thrilled to have it at all...in such a beautiful package? I guarantee you that for every Rashomon I can name a set that does impress. And whose to say there was alot of special features fodder to slap on there...its what 50 years old?

[manigrasso]

Yeah, Katanga beat me to it. Just because Rashomon is such an influential movie, does not mean they had a whole lot of guys running around shooting promotional footage, then thinking enough to store that promotional material.

[billyslits]

First up. Tyler, I don't know what version of The Rock you might have seen but Kurt Russell is not in that movie nor is he featured in any of the supplementary material on the Criterion DVD.

Secondly, I can list a bunch of recent Criterion releases that have featured excellent supplementary materials:

Traffic
Rebecca
8 1/2
Children of Paradise
L'avventura
In The Mood for Love
Sullivan's Travels
etc, etc...

Just because other companies have caught up to Criterion in terms of providing worthwhile extras does not mean that Criterion has thrown in the towel or become irrelevant. They are still devoting an exemplary amount of effort toward promoting and distributing excellent films on DVD.

[Marty McFly]

Originally posted by SeanL
I have to agree with you on "The Rock". The only thing that made this a worthwhile purchase was that it was a better presentation than the original release.

I'll have to agree there as well. It's a decent disc, but man is it pricy.

The only Criterion I own is Chasing Amy, and that was only to complete my Kevin Smith collection. The discs are just too-damned expensive and don't really have enough 'goodies' for me to sink money down for.

[Avid]

I've been really happy with my Criterions. Some of the studio releases I wish were Criterion, even if it was just for the transfer (such as Welcome to the Dollhouse).

Chasing Amy was the first one I got. I love that movie, and I thought everything about that disk was wonderful. Still the crown jewel of my collection.

Recently picked up:

For All Manking -- who else is going to release this on DVD? They included some awesome supplements. Really great disk.

Do the Right Thing -- I have already spent three nights watching this and I still have about two hours of supplements left to watch. I love these extras! Anybody that wants to direct should check out the 2nd disk.

Traffic -- I will watch this soon. I passed on the first release because I wanted a Soderbergh commentary. Not only do I get that but more good stuff I am looking forward to.

Can't wait for the 400 Blows re-issue. I have wanted to see this since film school and now I can hopefully have an anamorphic transfer. Sweet!

There are others that I might buy or rent that look like they have great supplements: 8 1/2, Notorious, Brazil, etc.

I think it is hard for Criterion to aquire the rights to films, and I hope that in another five years they are still in business.

[Donkey]

Criterion does relase good DVDs. But for the price they are not good. I mean Traffic has some really good stuff on it, but there could be more on the disc then there is. I mean I payed $29.99 the disc should have had more. That disc is worth about $19.99. I only myself own three Criterion Collection DVDs. They are:Chasing Amy which is good and I only payed $15.99 but the thrid was a major disapointment The Silence of the Lambs I payed $32.99 right before it went OOP. But that disc was not worth $33 no way. Oh well Criterion is the best at cover arts & menus.

[thaggas]

Sorry,
Gotta interject here. I thought the Traffic disc was loaded. I would rather have one really good in-depth retrospective or commentary than fifteen shallow photo galleries. When it comes to extras, it's always been quality over quantity. And I think Traffic fit the bill nicely.

[run1]

Whenever this type of discussions come up about "Criterion being too pricy compared to what they are offering" (and it pops up fairly regulary), I actually feel Criterion doesn't get ENOUGH praise for the dvds they produce. Their main focus is on giving attention to films they deem to be 'culturally important' (in lack of a better word. I don't see most of their titles as 'cult-y' actually. They have a few titles I would put in that category ("Whitnail and I", Life of Brian" etc), but I wouldn't say they are competing with Anchor Bay. In my opinion they mainly focus on films which can be said to have some cultural relevance, like "8 1/2", "Autumn Sonata" or "Last temptation of Christ". That's where their main focus is. So their dvds cost more than the usual studio-output, and in some cases have less than stellar extras. But do you seriously see any other studio putting out a new digital transfer of the 1958 russian movie "Ballad of a soldier"? I sure don't.

Don't think it's really fair to use 'The Rock' to compare with recent 'special editions' either. Make it fair, and compare it to the big studio Disney edition. Not to bad then, is it? (Personally I didn't care that much for the movie, but I guess Criterion needed the money badly).
Criterion has been pioneers in the art of supplements. It's only recently the bigger studios really has gotten in the game. And naturally they have more resources to their disposal.
Personally, I think $29.95 for "Royal Tenenbaum"is more than fair for what you get. That's about $3 more than the recent 'Shallow Hal" dvd. Would Disney have done a better job with Tenenbaum? Maybe, but I can't really recall seeing a mind-blowing special edition of a quirky, slightly odd movie that did only modest business at the box office lately. Can you?

By the way....... Do Criterion even call their titles 'Special Editions'?

[thaggas]

A good point, Run. I continue to buy Criterion, becuase without them, where would DVD be? Would we have these great extras that we are so accustomed to? Sure, we bitch and moan when a movie comes out with nothing but a trailer and some filmographies. But thanks to the folks at Criterion, they raised the bar and told the public to expect more and now we have.

I don't like bad-mouthing them, or complaining about pricing when this all they do, (no theme parks, or molded plastic cups to sell.) Sure, they need to stay competitive, but if it wasn't for CritCo, we'd all be wondering "How did Soderburgh do that?" Or "What is Bullet-Time?"

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by thaggas
A good point, Run. I continue to buy Criterion, becuase without them, where would DVD be? Would we have these great extras that we are so accustomed to?

I think Mr Durden would say the great extras we've come to desire and expect would in fact be present since

"[snip] this sort of bonus material is pivotal to the format itself"

I have some Criterion LDs and some Criterion DVDs. I have more Criterion LDs than DVDs (just due to title selection on DVD and what I already own, etc.).

I've come to really love Criterion LDs and don't really give preference to Criterion DVDs since I'm not an "extras" kind of guy, when it comes to DVD or LD, in the first place.

I think the most frustrating part is the business end of the DVD movement. The people who make movies on DVD available to us are doing so to make money and if they can find ways to wring as much money out of us that they can, they most certainly will do so.

Given they are in this to make money, they make decisions on what to include or not to include on a DVD based on how much it will cost them and how much they can make from thier efforts (through sales of the DVD once produced) and of course what content they have legal access to put on the disc.

Since the studios realize that adding extra content to DVD-Video is a great selling point, they are becoming much more savvy about making feature rich DVDs. They are also savvy about making you pay for the special features they want to release almost as much as they want to release them. I would guess that is why we have so many re-releases of well-made DVDs. Somce DVDs deserve to be re-released and others are just for more profits.

I think given the studios' perspective on the DVD-Video format (purely my speculation of course), Criterion willl need to be more creative in how it presents its DVD releases in order to maintain the prestigious reputation it developed in the LD world.

Some Criterion DVDs are great. Some are not. I don't think Criterion exists to make DVDs with TONS of features. I thnk Criterion exists to spotlight certain movies they "think" are important. (Or maybe if people pay the Criterion fee, they can get the Criterion "treatment" too... )

From this perspective, any Criterion release could be considered "special" since it was chosen to become part of the Criterion Collection.

I geuss the crux of my position is the Criterion Collection is not necessarily about extra features even though extra features is one way they can "pay homage" to the films they choose to add to the Criterion Collection.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion......

Peace.....

[theta]

First; there are points where I'm frustrated with Criterion. Sometimes their prices are cheap; other times, they're extortion. Sometimes the disc is loaded, other times, it's almost a bare-bones.
But I still like them quite a bit, and if my main reason to like them has been mentioned, I missed it.

Sure, studios are good at cranking out DVDs with a long feature list. Sometimes, they even have good supplements.

The vast majority of the time, however, the supplements are either non-existent or crap, completely uninformative or worse, only telling half the story. I have no desire to see the glossy commerical used to sell the movie on TV (aka the "television special") most of the time, because they DON'T TELL ME WHAT ACTUALLY MAKING THE MOVIE WAS LIKE.

Think about it for a minute. Would Paramount EVER let the true story about "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" out on their own disc? Hell no, they actively censored the supplements to keep the stories of executive mismanagement quiet. Will we ever get a straight answer on the controversy surrounding "A Beautiful Mind?" Doubtful. Will any of the screenwriters who didn't get credit for a major hit be allowed to weigh in? Never.

There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes that we would all really like to know about, and won't be told unless hell freezes over. No studio will do this, but Criterion is not beholden to a studio, so they are free to present the film in its proper context, with the background explained. Look no further than their release of "Brazil." Would Universal EVER cop to this? Yeah right.

I don't claim they do this all the time, or even most of the time, but when they do makes up for the more expensive, light-on-the-extras movies.

Also, to be totally blunt, if I ever buy a movie just for the extras, I'm going to quit buying discs. There are movies on these things, you know, and that's why I buy them. I'd rather have no supplements at all than crap ones.

[Fluffmygarfield]

On the subject of "Rashomon" what impressed me the most was the insert booklet which is, without a doubt, the best insert I have ever seen. That combined with the artwork and menu layout made the presentation of the film feel like something special. I haven't gone through the extras so I can't really comment on them.

[interfxrence]

i'm surprised to hear a lot of these comments... i too don't care much for supplements, but for the most part, criterion supplements have always been worth a sitting. nowhere on any criterion release do you see "special edition" printed on the packaging [except 'do the right thing' i think]. the films are presented as they are. with, or without supplements... [i'm with tomdkat] and i think the main focus of the criterion collection is on the film more than anything.

anyways, sit through the brazil... do the right thing... seven samurai... etc... supplements. then sit through any 'dreamworks' disc, and tell me that criterion doesn't produce supplements with *substance*

i know i'm a bit late in the game here, and some of my other points have been covered already -- but my final words -- i think criterion releases are worth purchasing, and really, the ones to look up on for quality supplements.

[DancinDave]

I have 16 Criterion DVDs -- which I just realized is 10% of the collection (more than I thought).

For me, I treat Criterion DVDs as I would any other "high-end" brand name. Sure, you're paying a premium, but in the end, you're guaranteed to get a good product. But, just like high-end brand names, there MAY be better products out there, and better "value for your $$" out there as well -- but with the Criterion Collection you're guaranteed that it won't be crap.

As for Criterion vs. Studio release I think Silence of the Lambs is an interesting example. That's the only title where I kept both versions -- each for their own merits.

[hamholio]

Ugh......I hate bonus features. I really do. They have no bearing on whether or not I purchase a disc. And I love Criterion because they do the best goddam transfers on the planet. I swear my copy of Dead Ringers has the most beautiful most filmlike transfer I've ever viewed on my television....... THAT makes it worth the extra bucks for me...... it's the difference between buying a cheap poster of a monet or buying a fine print.... yeah, the poster is the fucking painting, but hell, the print is going to look a lot more like the painting......


But to defer to those who want to watch extra features..... Do The Right Thing....... best extra features I've ever seen in my life.

[run1]

Originally posted by Tyler Durden

So, why the disappointment that Criterion have no plans to release such and such a film (say The Game.) I think the studios will do a much better job!

There is a new release of 'the game' on it's way from Universal.

http://www.davidfincher.net/news0028.html

Basically a re-release of the earlier disc, just anarmorphic. Somehow I think Criterion would have made more out of it.......