Disney Digs a Deeper Hole

[Taxi]

From the Little Mermaid II review on this site:

Not only do they promote the upcoming 102 Dalmatian, and additional DVD's, they've now dumped a plug for the Disney cruise line and Little Mermaid II soundtrack.

Well, folks, we knew it would get worse, and it has. And we knew Di$ney would be leading the way, and they are.

Don't put up with this crap on DVD, people. Don't buy DVDs with what are little more than advertisements on your DVDs that play for you automatically. This is NOT VHS.

Don't put up with it!!

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Taxi
DVDFile Administrator

[Dehrian]

I actually just went through my DVDs and was fairly shocked to realize how few Disney titles I actually own: Pulp Fiction, Cider House Rules, Shakespeare in Love, English Patient, Sixth Sense, and The Insider. That's it. I've heard that Disney has the highest market share of any studio, but it ain't showing up in my 200+ disc collection.

[samuelk]

I'm a huge fan of Disney feature film animation, but the only feature animated filme I own on DVD is the Tarzan Collector's Edition. I think that's one DVD that Disney did right. No forced trailers, and loads of extra features. I own every animated film since the Little Mermaid (and some before that) on VHS, but I'm not going to buy them on DVD until Disney does them right.

Sam

[Mother]

Hmmmm. . .maybe Ads and plugs on DVDs are like banner Ads on web sites. . .a necessary evil.

All things being fiscally relevant, of course, businesses find ways to survive. Even businesses that have huge profits such as Disney must use every available marketing tool. Maybe what Taxi is implying is to write Disney or to not buy Disney DVDs to send them a message. I only have one Disney movie because I detest their intrusive marketing efforts. I think the power of fiscal choice sends the strongest message.

Maybe, if enough people are pissed about these forced Ads and don't buy their DVDs, Disney will continue to release DVDs, yet seek other avenues of marketing. Maybe.

I remember when banner Ads first began appearing on web sites (yes, I've been wasting that much time online). Whoa. . .nasty, nasty chest beating in USENET and IRC. "We're not gong to surf this or that site!" "Commericalism is NOT taking over the Internet". Blah, blah, blah. . .and that was after all the USENET mass spamming in the early 1990's. Then, we all fell asleep and banner Ads became part of the coma.


BTW: This wasn't a personal hack toward the banner Ads on this web site. Just trying to draw a comparison.

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Mother | mother@kas.cc | www.kas.cc | listen.to/radiodecay/

[This message has been edited by Mother (edited 09-19-2000).]

[Tyler Durden]

I think I'd better skip this thread...

[P7A77]

Banner ads are necessary, because they fund sites that we enjoy for free. They're commercias in broadcast television.

Ads before a product that you buy, however, are completely different. Yes, they're trying to get more money - and in the most dispicible way possible. They know that little 4-year-old Johnny must absolutely see this-or-that movie on DVD. And he's not old enough to understand what the ads are, all he knows is he wants to go on that big boat and give Mickey a hug. Of course, Johnny likely wouldn't be able to fast-forward through the ads, but they make it impossible to do so anyway, as if mocking the parents who try to bypass it. They control your children. And they want to make sure you know it.

[Mother]

Well, I'm not going to defend Disney because I think their intent is specious at best, but maybe (just maybe) those forced Ads on DVDs will keep the cost of DVDs down. Just like banner Ads keep web sites free. . .

Maybe. . .(Mother inches out on limb)

I do wish there was a legal way to skip past the forced Trailers and Ads.

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Mother | mother@kas.cc | www.kas.cc | listen.to/radiodecay/

[Disco Stu]

Originally posted by Mother:
maybe (just maybe) those forced Ads on DVDs will keep the cost of DVDs down. Just like banner Ads keep web sites free. . .

Aren't Disney/Miramax/Buena Vista discs the most expensive retail non-special editions on the market at $32.99? Even Fox has dropped their regular $34.99 for the most part. So the forced trailers don't affect price in any way. Maybe they think that because they have them on there, they can charge you more. In fact, I seem to remember Disney/Miramax/Buena Vista being the only studio who has rasied their prices since the inception of DVD (from $29.99) and this seemed to occur right around the time of initial forced trailers period.

I too own very few Disney titles. Off the top of my head, out of 175 discs, I have Pulp Fiction, Mimic, Good Will Hunting, Grosse Point Blank, and A Bug's Life CE (although not really a Disney title), and I think the only one I paid for was A Bug's Life.


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Disco Stu likes disco dancing

[Dominik Pfleghaar]

I think we need to destinct something here... forced ads are such that you can't skip, whereas in this given example you can easily skip them by pressing the menu button.
The way I see it this isn't a forced ad.
(Doesn't make it much better, tho).

Am I very wrong?

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Unca Dom
dvdfile.com Administrator
pfleghaar@dvdfile.com
My HT My dvd collection

[Taxi]

I don't want any ads on my DVDs, forced or not, because I PAID for the disc. You shouldn't have to put up with advertising when you pay for something.

This practice began (by Di$ney again) for me when I bought Aladdin on VHS years ago. Inside were "Special Offer" flyers to get 5 dollars off of another Di$ney VHS if I bought some kiddie toothpaste, and a bunch of other crap that I didn't want. Sure, I could just throw those flyers away, but then we fill up the landfill with all this junk mail. I hate it.

Putting ads at the beginning of the DVD is just as rediculous. I don't buy the "driving down the cost" explaination, because Di$ney DVDs are the most expensive.

It's a simple case of exploiting the consumer, and unfortunately too many of us have bought into it. We accept phone calls from strangers trying to sell us stuff. (How many people give telemarketers a hard time for bothering you at home? Do you ask them to put you on their "do not call" lists?) Most people just put up with this, and because of that, it continues, or gets worse. I'll never buy anything from anybody that is trying to sell me something on the phone! Stop fucking calling me!!!

Okay, I feel better now. Obviously this is one of my pet peeves, and it really bothers me. You DON'T want to be a telemarketer calling my house, let me tell you.

And I'm not going to buy DVDs with ads on them.

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Taxi
DVDFile Administrator

[Frankie]

I want throw something at the TV every time I hear the guy say that it's avaliable on VHS and Disney DVD. Like it's some special kind of DVD Ahhhhhhhh

As for the trailors and promos, Doms right. If you can skip them then there not forced.

[GrizMD]

BUT.................you shouldn't HAVE to skip them!!!!!! If they want to have advertisements, they should put them on the main menu screen (as has been done previously sometimes) under a division titled "recommendations" or something like that. Don't FORCE this crap on us or our kids!

[1138]

Amen!

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Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

[clortho]

It's no different than what has been done on VHS for nearly 20 years now, other than on a new video medium. Like it or not, as the DVD userbase grows, so will this.

Clortho

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I am the Keymaster
clortho@hotmail.com

[Taxi]

No, I'm sorry, I don't subscribe to the defeatist attitude.

You could just as easily say "This was never the case on laserdisc" if you are looking for a tradition to uphold.

Never give in to the status quo.

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Taxi
DVDFile Administrator

[clortho]

I'm not for or against this, actually. The laserdisc argument doesn't quite hold up because it was more a niche product, and more and more every Joes are buying DVD. I think non-movie advertisements are, well, improper. But movie previews..as long as I'm able to skip them, or go straight to the movie, I don't really mind them. Yes, it'd be nicer to just have them an option from the menu, but as companies begin to shift their focus from VHS to DVD, we're going to begin to see a lot of the same practices, to entice the everyday Joe to buy more of their product. If they become unskippable, or more commercial ads like those on Little Mermaid 2 (which I'm thankfully not in the market for..unless there's some hot fish-love action we weren't told about in the review.. ), I'll protest. But until that day comes, I'll be happy to skip through them. Although that Music from the Heart preview on one of my disks is pretty bad.

Clortho

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I am the Keymaster
clortho@hotmail.com

[RoboDad]

Originally posted by Dominik Pfleghaar:
I think we need to destinct something here... forced ads are such that you can't skip, whereas in this given example you can easily skip them by pressing the menu button.
The way I see it this isn't a forced ad.
(Doesn't make it much better, tho).

Am I very wrong?

I won't say that you're wrong, but I will say that we have very different definitions of "forced ads." To me, any advertisement that automatically plays before any other segment of a DVD, and forces me to take some action to either a) prevent it, or b) override it, is a forced ad.

I've been trying to warn people since the first forced ads appeared on Disney DVDs that this was a bad thing, and that it would get worse. Now it has. Soon, there will be so many ads on Disney (and probably other) DVDs that it will force the use of higher compression of the movie itself, just to make room for them all. And we're not talking trailers here, we're talking cruise ads, computer software ads, clothing ads, soft drink ads, you name it.

And I don't buy the "maybe it will defray the expense of producing DVDs" logic, either. If Disney were selling DVDs at VHS prices ($15 or less MSRP), then I'd be much more tolerant. But at $29.99, they can take their ads and... well, you get the idea.

Robo

[samuelk]

Put ads in my disc if you want...as long as I only view them if I WANT, then that's fine with me.

I don't want any ads on my DVDs, forced or not, because I PAID for the disc. You shouldn't have to put up with advertising when you pay for something.

Yeah, but Taxi, what if no ads means you pay MORE for a disc?

If putting "non-forced" ads on a disc that only play if I specify will keep the cost down, then I'm all for it.

Ads are everywhere...it's the subtle ones that people don't notice...anytime you buy a pair of shoes from Nike, a T-shirt from Tommy Hilfigar (sp?) or a car from a Dealership, the company gets some free advertising.

Sam

[Taxi]

Originally posted by samuelk:
Yeah, but Taxi, what if no ads means you pay MORE for a disc?

No, this isn't the case, and it never will be.



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Taxi
DVDFile Administrator

[Mother]

Yeah, Taxi is right. Those Ads will never keep the cost of a DVD down. After mulling about this, I think it's wishful thinking.

So what do we do about? How do we revolt against this practice to make Disney perk up and notice our concerns? Give them the finger and not buy Disney discs? That won't work. Write them? Nada. . .

How????? Why couldn't this be stopped when the practice began on VHS???
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Mother | mother@kas.cc | www.kas.cc | listen.to/radiodecay/

[This message has been edited by Mother (edited 09-19-2000).]

[chlngr1970]

This is what I posted in my M2M thread about this topic:

This is what I am BITCHING ABOUT!!! Why, oh why are they doing this?!? Do they think we in the DVD comunity will let this go unnoticed? NO! We should organise another petition like the one for Star Wars, and send that as well as many nastygrams to Di$ney. Maybe they have already forgotten the backlash against Divx. We need to remind them that we, the consumer, are the ones who pay their bills.

Sorry for the rant, but I needed to get that off my chest.

Earlier on in the thread, people like me were labeled as arrogant. Well, then I am an Elitest Bastard, and DAMN PROUD OF IT!!!

The sooner we make it clear to these studios that this is an unacceptable business practice, the sooner we can celebrate it's demise.

j

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formerly known as j70chlngr
"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common:
they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit
the views, which can be uncomfortable, if you happen to be one of the facts
that needs altering."
My DVD Tracker page

[1138]

And like I said in another thread, if you've already bought the movie/product that the ad is for, then why should we have to see it every time we watch a movie? If a studio must force ads on us, put them in the damn menu so we don't have to watch them ever again once we've bought the damn product that they advertise!

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Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

[Ambushbug]

Just had a scary thought. What if Di$ney starts putting out two editions of each dvd.

Edition #1: Ten to twenty minutes of unskippable ads at the MSRP Di$ney is charging now.

Or

Edition #2: Add five to ten dollars to the current MSRP for an edition with absolutely *no* ads.

I suspect this would the only way to convince the Mouse to give us ad-free discs.

Frightening, no?

AB



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Happy Happy
Joy Joy

[Damian]

I think forces adds are here to stay. If they had the ability to stop the viewer from fast forewarding through them on VHS, they would have done it a long time ago but they didn't.
The fate was sealed as soon as Pepsi put the first commercial on the Top Gun video.



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-Damian

[samuelk]

No, this isn't the case, and it never will be.

I'm not so sure about that.

I can see a situation where a smaller production company wants to release an independent or other type of film on DVD, but they would either have to A) charge a high price to cover production costs, or B) find a way to lower the cost of production.

Enter the advertisers... other companies agree to foot some of the production bill in order to place (NON-FORCED) ads on the DVD.

So when the DVD is finally produced, on the main menu you would see, along with the normal menu items, an entry called "sponsors"...

I can see that happening, and as long as there are no sacrifices made in the production of the DVD to accomodate sponsors, then I'm all for it.

Let me stress, however, that I'm talking about NON-FORCED advertisements.

Let's face it...advertising money is the way you guys keep THIS site in production (and FREE to visitors). Why wouldn't it work for DVDs?

Sam

[samuelk]

On a related note, why has no one lumped the FBI warnings in with advertisements? Aren't they annoying, too?

Why does everyone accept forced FBI warnings?

Sam

[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 09-20-2000).]

[Taxi]

It's not fair to compare banner ads on web sites to DVDs because you don't pay to visit most web sites. The ones where you do pay, shouldn't display banner ads, IMHO.

If they wanted to give away free DVDs with ads, that would be a different thing altogeter. But as was stated over on the Mission to Mars thread, since we're paying money for the DVD, there should be no ads.

There was a company that was giving away free DVDs with ads on them (somebody help me with the name, I've forgotten), and the flip side even contained a movie, albeit usually a b-title. Still, for free, it's an okay deal. I think they've gone out of business, though. I haven't received a DVD in the mail from the for many months.

(Oh, and I hate the FBI warnings, too. They should be at the END of the movie, not forced at the beginning. There is no legal reason for the warning to be at the beginning of the disc, and they're kidding themselves if they think anybody is actually wasting any time reading the damn legal disclaimer anyway.)
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Taxi
DVDFile Administrator

[This message has been edited by Taxi (edited 09-20-2000).]

[samuelk]

I think I know the people you're talking about, Taxi, and I signed up for a free DVD from them, but never got anything.

I understand what you're saying, Taxi, but I don't think it has to be black or white... the DVD doesn't necessarily have to be completely free...

If I could get a copy of the Terminator 2 Ultimate Edition for $10.00 instead of 20 or 30, simply because it had a couple of advertisements stuck in a "Sponsors" section of the menu, I'd be all for it.

I'd never even have to view the ads...but they would be there. Eventually, everybody is going to look at them just out of shear curiosity. And if I knew that a company put up good money to support DVD production, I'd be willing to look at their ad, and probably buy their products (OK, so maybe not if it was Firestone tires ).

My main point is that there can be some middle ground in which ads on DVDs can LOWER the cost of the DVD, not elimiate it.

Sam

[pharmelink]

Well I debated a lot before adding my two cents worth here. Whether I like the ads or not (generally don't mind movie promos, but cruise ads or diet drinks please!!!!!), I think there is one thing we are missing from a technical point.

DVDs, like computer software, you do not buy or own them. You are paying for a liscence to view/use them. And you do that as is.

How many of you complain when you launcher your computers, word processors, or the like that the stupid company logos appear everywhere? or that they are plastered all over your hardware items?

But I'm just trying to make you all think, not get people angry...

Have a better one.


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Thanks.

Paul H.

[samuelk]

Well, I don't think that this is going to turn ugly. We're all adults here. Too many times, people think that a disagreement is an argument. Disagreements can be healty and intelligent discussions. The key is to respect the opposite viewpoint.

DVDs, like computer software, you do not buy or own them. You are paying for a liscence to view/use them. And you do that as is.

Not quite. I can destroy my DVD if I want...I own that DVD. It's mine. Just like I own a book that I buy. Does that mean I can distribute it or sell it? No. There's a big difference. In most computer software that you buy, you can disable the "splash screen" that pops up with you run the software. Furthermore, the splash screen does not delay my using the software. Even if it weren't there, I'd still have to wait while the program loaded. And it's not really an advertisement, because when Microsoft Windows loads, there aren't ads for other Microsoft products. It's a big difference. The splash screens are beneficial for many reasons (like being able to tell what programs start up when Windows starts).


As for company logos on hardware items, those kinds of ads (if you can call them that) don't add extra time to the use of the item because they're there. I dont' care if my modem has "Creative Labs" on it because it's not like I have to see an ad for Creative Labs before I can use my modem.

Sam


[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 09-21-2000).]

[Mr. Freeze]

Well if what many of you believe is that we will never totally rid ourselves of forced advertisements on DVD's is true, maybe we should try to attack the problem from another angle (in addition to protesting and boycotting their products). Later models of VCR's develop a feature (ex. movie advance) to bypass movie advertisements on the tape. Perhaps we should petition the companies that make DVD players to start coming out with players that have features designed to bypass this advertising crap on our DVD's. I know most of us will not be happy at the prospect of buying a new DVD player, but I'm looking at the long run for a solution if none of the other stuff works in the short term.

[Lo Pan]

Originally posted by Taxi:
You could just as easily say "This was never the case on laserdisc" if you are looking for a tradition to uphold.

LOL! Sorry, had to laugh. Look where LD is today. Sure there's plenty of them in our collection, but what was the last LD you actually bought?

The only ads I don't want on my DVD's are ones that are truly impossible to skip past. Other than that, I couldn't care less. The ads don't make me wanna buy something, but let them think they work if they must. (I know I'm in the minority here.) I don't have defeatist attitude...I just don't care either way.

[This message has been edited by Lo Pan (edited 09-21-2000).]

[Dehrian]

Mr. Freeze, sadly enough, I'm actually looking into buying my third right now, and that's not including the one on my computer.

I officially need a life.

[samuelk]

I don't think the solution should be an alteration of hardware. I think Taxi's commitment to chosing not to buy a DVD that doesn't meet his standards is the best idea. Eventually, DVD makers will get the idea.

But I think that advertising is a good thing, as long as it's not forced.

Sam

[Taxi]

Lo Pan, I've NEVER bought a Laserdisc, since I don't have a player. I just know from my vast knowledge of the format (chuckle) that they didn't have ads at the beginning. (I do have a friend who's got hundreds of LDs, so I have seen quite a few.)

I also agree that a hardware solution is probably unrealistic, even though it is an excellent solution to the problem. Unfortunately, the hardware manufacturers aren't going to do something that would piss off the studios, as I'm sure that would.

Here is another reason why I hate ads at the beginning of movies. I often have friends over to watch a DVD or two. When I pop a new disc in, I don't want to be subjected to a bunch of ads (skippable or not) at the beginning of the disc. I either want to see a cool animated menu, or the start of the movie. That really increases the DVD "wow" factor. Skipping past DVD ads really increases the DVD "dork" factor.

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Taxi
DVDFile Administrator

[Mr. Freeze]

Wow Dehrian, I thought I was bad with how many DVD’s I bought in the last 9 months since I got my first DVD player. I only have one Sony DVD player and a DVD-ROM on my computer. So I’m still relatively new to all this.

To samuelk and Taxi
Sorry if you don't think it will work. I’m just trying to give suggestions, but I don’t think Disney will care if we boycott their products since they have so much mass-market appeal. In films that are more cult classics done by other studios, I feel boycotting will work. And as far as hardware manufactures not wanting to piss off the studios, why do some VCR’s have the features to bypass the advertisements on VHS (sorry I had to even say that word)? Please excuse my ignorance but I have to ask, do studios pay the hardware manufactures in anyway that I am not aware of? What type of influence do they have over the hardware manufactures? I know this is probably very naïve of me so be gentle, but I thought that the hardware manufactures would have more to gain servicing our needs since we are the ones buying their products, and it only takes one hardware manufacture to put this feature on a player to open the door to a hardware solution.(right?)

[samuelk]

re: hardware bypassing, think of it this way, Mr. Freeze:

If Panasonic (just to use a familiar name) makes a VCR that allows you to bypass commercials, it probably enters their minds that that also means you never have to watch another commercial for PANASONIC ever again.

There's always a connection, even between movie studios and hardware manufacturers. Don't think that the companies that make your VCR don't make equipment that movie studios use. It's all about balance. People like you and me aren't the only consumers. The movie studios and DVD production houses also purchase equipment from these guys.

Sam

[clortho]

As was mentioned earlier, I think the most effective way to combat this and have your voices heard is to do it through customer feedback such as, mailing them, the feedback postcards, and calling customer service. I would suggest mainly non-electronic forms such as these because an email can be much more easily dismissed than actual pieces of paper can be.

Clortho

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I am the Keymaster
clortho@hotmail.com

[Mr. Freeze]

Sorry if I'm not understanding your example, samuelk, but Panasonic does have a VCR that allows you to bypass commercials at the beginning of tapes. And I don't have to watch another commercial for PANASONIC ever again or any other product advertised on a VHS tape again, although I never watch many VHS movies anymore except for some Anime.

[samuelk]

Panasonic was just an example. But the reason I gave above is among a few reasons why you won't see "commercial-skipping" technology become really popular. Another reason is that the technology isn't perfect. Very often, when recording a program using this feature, part of the program is cut off as well as the commercials.

The biggest reason is because this kind of hardware commercial detection can eventually be defeated by changing the way the television signal is translated, and then you're stuck with a feature that no longer works.

Changing hardware is a last resort.

Sam