Netflix Frustration

[snaithbert]

I wanted to rent "Star Trek 5" from Netflix, so I could enjoy Mr. Shatner's commentary.

But they didn't seem to have it.

I emailed customer service to ask if they had it, seeing as they DID have disc 2 from the set. I figured if they had disc 2, they gotta have disc 1, right?

Wrong.

They emailed back and said they don't carry updated editions of movies they already have. They DO offer the bonus discs, but not the original discs, with the actual movie on them.

I'm amazed. How much sense does this make? Why not offer both versions? Especially if you're already buying the set, to get the 2nd disc? What do they do with the 1st disc- throw them out?

I'm rather annoyed with this practice. What's the point of belonging to Netflix, if they're not going to carry the movies I want to see? I could understand if these were obscure little movies that 5 people on the planet would be renting, but these are mainstream, highly successful films that most people want to see again, now that they've been upgraded.

Grrrr.

Any thoughts on this, or am I the only one bugged by this?

Snaithbert

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by snaithbert

Any thoughts on this, or am I the only one bugged by this?

I'm sure you're not the only one frustrated by this but I don't see anything wrong with Netflix's practices here. They stock the movie for you to rent, just not the particular version of the movie you want to rent. I don't see this as big deal at all.

Think about what you're proposing: you want Netflix to keep pace with each re-relase of each DVD they stock that comes out? I don't think that's really practical.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand your frustration with Netflix on this. I just don't think they are in the "wrong" in this case. Their selection alone makes me happy as a customer.

Peace..

[manigrasso]

I see what snaith is saying: Unless netflix somehow struck a deal with Paramount to get a bunch of Star Trek V Bonus DVDs WITHOUT buying the actual MOVIE DVDs, they should have the new version of the DVD in stock as well.

I say that you should request other Star Trek DVDs that have been remastered and re-released in a 2-disc set, and then see what you get. If you DO get a remastered movie, then you know they are engaging in horseshittery.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by manigrasso

I see what snaith is saying: Unless netflix somehow struck a deal with Paramount to get a bunch of Star Trek V Bonus DVDs WITHOUT buying the actual MOVIE DVDs, they should have the new version of the DVD in stock as well.

I understand that part of it but what's not being mentioned is what would be involved to add the new movie discs to their database in such a way they can be easily distinguishable from the versions they already had in their database as well as getting these new verrsions of existing titles fully integrated into their system. The question is one of technical feasibility or possibility but of practicality.

The same applies to widescreen or fullscreen versions of DVDs they stock. The vast majority of DVDs I rent from Neflix (like 98%) are widescreen and a number of those (say 20 - 30%) are DVDs with widescreen and fullscreen versions available for purchase. For example, if I rented The Matrix: Revolutions from Netflix, I would either get the widescreen version (hopefully that would be the one) or the fullscreen version but NOT have the option to choose which version I got. They probably feel it's not practical to stock both fullscreen and widescreen versions since that might be a management nightmare if discs got swapped in sleeves, etc.

Peace...

[snaithbert]

I hear ya, Tomdkat.

But I can't believe that adding special edition titles would be that big a deal for Netflix. They add many new titles every week, what's a few more? As for distinguishing between old and new versions of films, there's already a little picture of almost all the films they offer when you're ready to select them. Seems to me that most folks who know there IS a special edition of a movie would know enough to select the right version of the movie, based on the picture. That's why I wondered about Star Trek 5 in the first place, because the picture was from the old release, whereas the picture from disc 2 was from the new one.

Also, they could just add the words "SPECIAL EDITION" and that would pretty much clue people in. People could have the option of choosing the original edition or the special edition, maybe with a bit of info about each version.

I know it's not an overnight process, and I'm sure it'd take some time to create pages for special editions, add an option where you can choose between new and old editions, etc.

But isn't that what we all want out of a movie rental site? One that's growing and changing as the marketplace changes and as DVDs become available? To draw a line in the sand and say "this is as far as we're prepared to go" seems kind of limiting to me. I admit they have a great selection, but suddenly it seems like all kinds of movies are being re-released with all kinds of neat extras that I want to see. But I can't see them, because Netflix doesn't carry them. And then I wonder why I belong to a service that doesn't carry the things I want to see.

As I say- it's frustrating.

Great service beyond that though, I will admit.

If they'd add (at least some) special editions- Netflix would really be perfect.

Thanks for listening.

Snaithbert

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by snaithbert

But I can't believe that adding special edition titles would be that big a deal for Netflix. They add many new titles every week, what's a few more? As for distinguishing between old and new versions of films, there's already a little picture of almost all the films they offer when you're ready to select them. Seems to me that most folks who know there IS a special edition of a movie would know enough to select the right version of the movie, based on the picture. That's why I wondered about Star Trek 5 in the first place, because the picture was from the old release, whereas the picture from disc 2 was from the new one.

I actually agree with you to a degree on this. It really shouldn't be a "big deal" for them to do what you propose. However, the solution to this you pose is really one sided. Yes, they could make the website clearly indicate which version of which movie is being viewed or rented, etc.

However, this doesn't address what happens behind the scenes, internally at Netflix. I have NO idea how their shop works but if I were to hold any DVD release and re-release movie disc side-by-side would I be able to immediately tell the difference between the two? Maybe if one had disc cover art and the other didn't I could tell the difference but I would have to know the one with the cover art was the new release and not the old release... or was that reversed. All it would take would be for the new release to make it into the old release's sleeve and now the wrong DVDs are being mailed out to people. The un-rated version of a movie could be sent to someone who didn't want it.

Additionally, how many of the new release copies should be purchased? How do they know when to purchase the new release and make the movie disc available and when not to? Some re-releases have extra content and the movie disc is left untouched and others "touch" the movie disc. How far does this go? All of this must be worked out before a title is even made available on the website for their customers to rent to keep things running smoothly.

But isn't that what we all want out of a movie rental site? One that's growing and changing as the marketplace changes and as DVDs become available?

Certainly, but I think they are doing that right now. The one thing I found VERY frustrating was them removing DVDs from my queue that I didn't get a chance to rent because they chose to stop stocking those titles. I've had about 20 or so DVDs yanked because they changed their policy regarding stocking certain kinds of DVDs.

I think they do a remarkable job of maintaining a vast and diverse collection of DVDs. Some of the newly released DVDs listed in this forum aren't always available for rent from themso I know they don't go out and buy everything that gets released.

To draw a line in the sand and say "this is as far as we're prepared to go" seems kind of limiting to me.

I agree with this BUT I'm sure they've got a lot of things to factor in when deciding how to manage their DVD selection and it's clear to me they can't do everything. Otherwise, they risk going out of business. I want to use the term "diminishing returns" but I'm not sure it's applicable here since I don't know what goes on internally there.

On the flip side, I don't think expecting them to do everything WE want isn't realistic or fair. It's not like they didn't stock the movie you wanted at all vs them not stocking the particular version you wanted.

I admit they have a great selection, but suddenly it seems like all kinds of movies are being re-released with all kinds of neat extras that I want to see.

This is a great point since it's something they probably were not prepared for and are dealing with today. I believe you said the re-release of Star Trek 5 had extra features on a second disc that they DO make available. All you're missing is the audio commentary on the movie disc. If this is the case, then you already have access to more DVD content from them and they have adjusted their selection based on the DVD re-release. I would probably agree with you more if they didn't stock ANY parts of the Star Trek 5 re-release at all, but that's not the case here.

But I can't see them, because Netflix doesn't carry them. And then I wonder why I belong to a service that doesn't carry the things I want to see.

I agree. If you're unhappy about not being able to hear the audio commentary on Star Trek 5, cancel your subscription. That will eliminate you as competition for the movies I want to rent from them.

You've always got the option of buying the DVD or borrowing that re-release from a friend so you can hear the audio commentary.

Again, I do understand your frustration so don't think I think you're full of 'hot air' or anything like that.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Hey PolloDiablo, do you guys carry both releases of Star Trek 5? Just curious....

Peace...

[Doctor_Mabuse]

They're wrong, period!

[StinkPalm]

how about this frustration? i just got an email tonight saying there will be a price increase.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by StinkPalm

how about this frustration? i just got an email tonight saying there will be a price increase.

Me too...

Originally Posted by Netflix

We hope you're enjoying the convenience and selection of Netflix. Our goal has always been to offer a great service at a great price, and we're dedicated to bringing you the largest library of films delivered quickly to your home.

Since launching our service almost four years ago, the subscription rate for the 5-at-a-time program has never changed. We've added more than 20 distribution centers in order to provide one business day delivery to most of our members. We've also expanded our library by thousands of titles and now offer more than 18,000 to choose from. During the four years, improvements such as these, as well as postal rate changes, have increased the cost of doing business.

Beginning June 15, 2004, we will be raising the prices of all our subscription programs. Your plan, the Netflix 5-at-a-time program, will change from $29.95 per month to $33.99 per month.

We believe our service offers an exceptional value and hope you'll continue to enjoy the benefits of Netflix at the new price. We realize that you have many home entertainment choices, and we appreciate your business.

Yours Truly,
The Netflix Team

Peace...

[JeffHanawalt]

Hi Stink and Tom-

just curious- how many movies are you allowed to have out?
I read where if you have the 8 movie plan your monthly fee
will increase by $10. That's a huge increase. I have the 3
movie plan, so I will pay another $2 a month. No biggie to me
because I love Netflix and I would miss them terribly if they
went belly up. I don't rent from stores anymore because of
Netflix, and I don't want to have to go back to rental stores.

Long live Netflix!

[AlexJS]

one of the reasons they cited for the price increase was an increase in the average number of discs rented (read: bad people (like me) turning around on titles quickly to get more discs/month.)

NFLX plunged nearly 17% on the news.

i was pissed when i got my email this weekend saying my fee would go 10$ up. why a $10 increase for the 8 out plan and only $2 for the other plans. and they got rid of the 5 out plan months ago. and it seems the quicker i return the movies the more often that a disc that's put in my que will say, "Disc Will Ship Tomorrow" that just pisses me off every time.

[moviezzz]

Actually, many times Netflix WILL carry the special edition version of a title. They may not advertise it, but when you get it, you may get the updated version.

Lately, my Netflix service has been very glitchy. For the past two years I could always count on discs being received, new selected and shipped on the same day, but now, they are being received in the morning, selected in the afternoon, and new ones sent the next day.

Not to mention taking a lot longer to get there. Mail them all on the same day from the same mailbox. One getting there the next day, the others taking 4 or 5 more days to get there. Now my distribution center is less than ah hour away so it shouldn't take that long.

Still, I more than justify even the increased price with the previewing of discs I would have bought blind.

But, in the past month or so, service has really been on the decline.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by JeffHanawalt

Hi Stink and Tom-

just curious- how many movies are you allowed to have out?

Originally Posted by Netflix

Beginning June 15, 2004, we will be raising the prices of all our subscription programs. Your plan, the Netflix 5-at-a-time program, will change from $29.95 per month to $33.99 per month.

I don't know what plan stinkpalm is on. Based on his avatar, he might not know or care either!

Peace...

[limacharliewhiskey]

I remember a few price hikes during my membership period, joining when the 4-at-a-time plan started for just $15.95 per month. That got jacked up to $19.95, and then up to $23.95. This latest price hike doesn't seem like a surprise, considering Netflix reported another quarterly loss on Friday.

Netflix now has 1.9 million members (up almost 4x from when I quit, when it had just 500k members), but is still struggling to make a profit consistently each quarter. Until Netflix starts to turn a profit, you can probably expect future price hikes in monthly subscription rates.

Now you know how Blockbuster can make a profit every quarter: they charge $4 per rental and even more $$$ in late fees.

Here's the Netflix news brief I read:

Netflix Loss Widens as Expenses Rise
From Bloomberg News

April 16, 2004

Netflix Inc., the largest mail-order video-rental service, said its first-quarter loss widened to $5.79 million as marketing expenses rose. The shares fell as much as 11.9%.

The net loss of 11 cents a share compared with a year-earlier loss of $2.38 million, or 5 cents, the company said. Sales at Los Gatos, Calif.-based Netflix rose 80% to $100.4 million.

Netflix shares fell as much as $4.41 to $32.61 after hours. In regular trading, they rose 52 cents to $37.02 on Nasdaq.

[tomdkat]

Wow, that doesn't sound good at all. If their merketing expenses are continuing to increase, I wonder what they can do to offset that.

Netflix is almost a "household word" these days so maybe they could back off of the "push" campaign to get their name out there. People can learn about Netflix through online sites, like this one and others. What could they do to cut their costs a bit so they won't have to keep raising prices. Or maybe would a change in their pricing structure help to make their service more attractive.

Peace...

[Larry Larry]

Netflix is great. I've never had any complaints.

I'll join for a few months, take a break, then rejoin. I've done this several times, mainly because I can only watch so many movies. I buy alot on my own anyway.

When you think about getting 5 movies mailed to your house for $20 to $22, that's pretty sweet. Especially the obscure stuff that rental stores won't carry.

Some people think that unless they cycle 12 movies through the system each month and really screw the company out of any opportunity for making money, then they aren't getting a good deal.

[mrcoaster]

I travel all the time, so it's really useful to me not to have to return the movies by a certain date. When I'm gone for a longer stretch, I don't get the turnaround I would when I'm at home. I don't have to worry about turning them in by a certain date or having to go get them and return them.

I'll suck it up for the $2 hike at my rate.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by mrcoaster

I travel all the time, so it's really useful to me not to have to return the movies by a certain date. When I'm gone for a longer stretch, I don't get the turnaround I would when I'm at home. I don't have to worry about turning them in by a certain date or having to go get them and return them.

Sounds to me like disposable DVDs would be better for you...

Peace...

[mrcoaster]

Oh, gosh....PLEASE not those!!!! No way!! I'll pay extra not to have to deal with that nightmare.

[cxc273]

I had sort of the same problem with Netflix. I wanted to check out the extended cut of Michael Bay's "Pearl Harbor," but they didn't carry it. I really have no desire to buy it, but I did want to check out the extended battle scenes.

[cookieman]

I posted about this issue a while ago. It's what's keeping me from getting Netflix - surely there's a company I can find that will respect the renter more.

What's most frustrating to me is not that they won't always stock special editions (although this is frustrating).

What's most frustrating is that they apparently sometimes do carry the new Disc 1 when they only show the new disc 2 and the old disc 1 (or, sometimes carry a new 1-disc edition even when they only show the old one). But, you're not sure which one you'll get when you order! So you're stuck in this game of roulette trying to get the new edition to hear that commentary, which they may or may not have, and which they may or may not send to you! That's just insane.

Surely there's a way they can show more respect for the renter. If they can differentiate between movie X and Y, they can find a way to differentiate between edition X and Y.

[Frank Gunn]

Originally Posted by cookieman

I posted about this issue a while ago. It's what's keeping me from getting Netflix - surely there's a company I can find that will respect the renter more. Surely there's a way they can show more respect for the renter.

Sheeit, if Netflix *ever* disses me, I'll bus' a cap in they ass.

[snaithbert]

I'm sure Netflix has a very large staff of web design folks who do nothing but make changes to the site all day long.

This being the case, it wouldn't cost them much time or energy to design new pages into the site that offer the choice of special editions or regular versions.

The bottom line is that they're just too lazy and don't want to take the time. If you want an updated version of a movie, you can either hope that's the one they send, or quit and go back to the video store. Either way, they don't care.

The fact that they don't carry (or at least advertise) special editions really drives home the fact that they don't care much about their customers, beyond the color of their money.

It's not like there's only been one movie that's been re-released and Netflix is waiting to see if the trend will catch on.

They just don't want to do it because it would mean more work.

And more importantly, it means that Netflix is not only disinterested in their customers, they're totally unaware of changing trends in the DVD market, beyond what's coming out when, etc.

This is doubtlessly why they're doing so poorly. They spend 90 percent of their budget on advertising and then once they've got the customers they were so desperate to snare, they offer them nothing beyond the most basic service.

Well I can get basic service anyplace. I'm guaranteed at least that from anyone I'm giving my money to.

What guarantees my loyalty is above and beyond service. That's what'll make me a customer for life and always keep me coming back.

I'm not sure there's a service out there that offers that, but I'm sure it's NOT Netflix.

Good idea, bad execution.

On the other hand, this industry is very new and is growing and changing.

The company that usurps Netflix may have a greater chance to get things right.

Snaithbert

[Larry Larry]

Snaithbert, what a lot of complaining.

Here's another choice. If some movie is this important to you, just go buy the damn thing. You sound like you think you're entitled to something.

[cookieman]

Thanks for contributing, Larry - I bet he hadn't thought of that.

The issue is that a lot of people love DVDs for the extra content - commentaries, docs, etc, but don't necessarily want to watch these things more than once. Or they want to see a new, improved transfer of a film (but not necessarily more than once). That's where a service like Netflix should come in. But they seem to have devised a frustrating system in which you play roulette to perhaps get an edition they may or may not have.

If they were just explicit and honest about what they did and did not have and what you'll receive, I could understand it, but that's not the case.

[moviezzz]

Guys, think about this from a business standpoint. What is the point of carrying 5 different copies of certain films when the majority of people rent it just for the film? It isn't "laziness". It just gets redundant. I don't blame Netflix for this.

The average renter goes to Netflix just to see the film. They aren't even aware that mulitple versions may exist. And let's be honest, the special versions are most of the time not worth the upgrade. Why change your inventory because one disc has a 10 minute featurette?

Most obsessive DVD people (who would know about multiple versions) would buy the film if they are really interested in it. They wouldn't care if Netflix doesn't carry it.

And besides, they DO carry special editions of many titles. I've rented films that from the Netflix artwork were just cheap public domain titles only to get the upgraded studio releases.

[cookieman]

Originally Posted by moviezzz

Guys, think about this from a business standpoint. What is the point of carrying 5 different copies of certain films when the majority of people rent it just for the film? It isn't "laziness". It just gets redundant. I don't blame Netflix for this.

The vast majority of movies that have more than one edition, have two editions (if you don't count full-frame editions, and why would you?).

The average renter goes to Netflix just to see the film. They aren't even aware that mulitple versions may exist. And let's be honest, the special versions are most of the time not worth the upgrade. Why change your inventory because one disc has a 10 minute featurette?

Lots of special editions feature improved transfers, sound mixes, and hours and hours of content. Look, there are some upgrades that are not that special, but you're taking the most extreme example and using it to make your point for all movies - that doesn't wash.

Most obsessive DVD people (who would know about multiple versions) would buy the film if they are really interested in it. They wouldn't care if Netflix doesn't carry it.

Again - there are lots of commentaries I'd love to hear, but not more than once, and not for $25 or $30. Do people really listen to commentaries dozens of times? One of the major attractions of netflix for me was that with no due date, I'd have time to make it through the features when I rent.

And besides, they DO carry special editions of many titles. I've rented films that from the Netflix artwork were just cheap public domain titles only to get the upgraded studio releases.

That's fantastic. But my major complaint is with their bizarre handling of the situation. They probably have to replace discs after a while due to loss, theft, scratching, etc., and then replace them with the the newer edition, which is why you see new editions in the mix. But they could differentiate between the two and let you pick. Presumably, the new edition would be more sought after than the older, barer-bones one, and thus renters could make a choice between a longer wait for the better edition or a shorter wait for the older one. However they do it, their current system just screams, "if you love DVD, we don't care about you".

[moviezzz]

Originally Posted by cookieman

That's fantastic. But my major complaint is with their bizarre handling of the situation. They probably have to replace discs after a while due to loss, theft, scratching, etc., and then replace them with the the newer edition, which is why you see new editions in the mix. But they could differentiate between the two and let you pick. Presumably, the new edition would be more sought after than the older, barer-bones one, and thus renters could make a choice between a longer wait for the better edition or a shorter wait for the older one. However they do it, their current system just screams, "if you love DVD, we don't care about you".

Like I said, most people just want the film, not the extras. Why create confusion by creating multiple listings for a single title?

As for the "we don't care about you" comment, c'mon. They carry just about every title that is released each week. If they don't carry it, you can contact and they will most likely get it for you. How is that not caring?

I'd much rather see them carry more titles than more versions of certain titles.

[cookieman]

The issue for me isn't that they don't carry everything.

I think they're "creating confusion" by not listing the edition of the movie they'll send you.

Lots of casual movie fans have become bonus feature fans thanks to DVD. They could have an simple front page with a one-click option for "first available" and a "DVD Lover" expanded page with all the editions.

It's just the attitude that no one cares about features that I find galling.

[snaithbert]

First of all, thanks Cookieman for summing up what I wanted to say to Larry but didn't get a chance to post. Buy the DVDs? Wow, I didn't even know you could do that.

Next, my feeling on this whole thing is that it really serves as an example of how Netflix isn't a forward thinking company.

Netflix is a DVD rental service. It's not like I'm paying them for something else and they happen to be sending me DVDs out of the kindness of their hearts. DVD rental is their business. It's what they do. It's ALL they do. And that being the case, I'm amazed they don't bother to take advantage of every rental opportunity, such as offering special editions and re-releases. Or if they do, it's at their discretion and you get whatever you happen to get, etc.

Renting DVDs is what they do and multiple releases of films are now a large (or at least growing) part of the DVD business. Even if the majority of people don't care what version they get, the fact that so many special edition titles are being released sends a clear message that there ARE people out there who want them and that the demand can only go up as more people catch on about re-releases, etc.

A smart, savvy company would look at the titles available and say "obviously, people want to see these titles, we better start integrating them as options for our customers." It wouldn't take much time or effort to change their site and integrate an option where you can choose which version you want, etc. And it certainly wouldn't require a bigger budget- since it seems like they're already buying the special editions anyhow.

But of course- all that requires work. It's easier to just do nothing and say "we already offer a version of that title, that's all we need to give them."

Offering one version of a movie is the LEAST they can do. I'd rather give my business to a company that does the MOST they can do, or at least tries to do the most. Netflix seems to be assuming (make that "hoping") that their customers will just be satisfied with the most basic level of service and never pipe up and request alternatives, etc. But I think they're wrong. I think as the market grows and people catch on to what's out there, customer demands will force Netflix to actually work to satisfy their clients, above and beyond the "you'll get what you get and like it" attitude they seem to have now.

What amazes me is that people here are denfending Netflix and saying "look it at from a business standpoint," etc. Business standpoint? Renting DVDs is their business! And I want to rent DVDs! So what's the problem? I want to give them my business, but I don't want to throw my money away on a company that refuses to stock releases of (very popular) movies that I want to see. Or at the very least, refuses to ADMIT they have them and give me the option to choose them, over another version!

My point here is that from a "business standpoint," Netflix isn't that great a business. They do just enough to fulfull their obligations- and nothing more. The service that goes above and beyond and offers a truly wide variety of titles will doubtlessly flourish in the long run. After all, if DVD rental is all you do- you better do it really damn well.

Cheers,

Snaithbert

[Larry Larry]

The free market will work this issue out. Either some company will realize the huge opportunities from the Snaithbert's of the world, or they will all (Netfilx, Wal-Mart, Blockbuster and the rest) determine this niche is too small and not offer it. If there is money to be made, I'm sure one of them will make it.

[snaithbert]

Larry Larry,

Yeah I guess you've summed it up pretty well.

The companies will go where the money is.

Let's just hope more people catch onto special editions and make that where the money is, so those titles are more readily available.

Probably won't happen- buy a man can hope.

Cheers,

Snaithbert

[Hassan Tchaup]

I have a friend who is very happy with an indy company called Greencine that is up to the task that netflix seems unable to do. Haven't tried it myself but am sure to in the not too distant future.

[Herschel]

Originally Posted by Hassan Tchaup

I have a friend who is very happy with an indy company called Greencine that is up to the task that netflix seems unable to do. Haven't tried it myself but am sure to in the not too distant future.

I've heard a number of people recommend Greencine as a good alternative to Netflix, supposedly with a strong focus on indie and anime.

I know I saw some numbers about a year ago of how many titles each of the competing DVD-by-mail services offered, and Netflix just had a clear lead over everyone else. WalMart was in second place, but when I searched their site for some movies I wanted to see, they only had 1 out of 5, while Netflix had 4 out of 5 of them.

I've noticed what the original poster was talking about, but I forget what title. They had the bonus disc from a new release, but the movie disc description was from an early release. My guess was there was a good chance of getting the newer disc 1, but who knows.

What was worse was the time I rented Sid & Nancy, which was supposed to be the Criterion release from the description. Instead I got the barebones, non-Criterion version. I don't know if Netflix just bought the barebones ones to replace the older versions, or if some other customer along the line switched them out because he wanted the OOP Criterion, and the Netflix processing center never noticed...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by cookieman

The issue for me isn't that they don't carry everything.

It's true they don't carry everything but you can't deny their selection is extensive. I think they carry more than most other rental places.

I think they're "creating confusion" by not listing the edition of the movie they'll send you.

I'm not sure I follow here. Most people aern't aware of multiple releases of DVDs until they see them on the shelves. As more and more people frequent online forums, like this one, they will get introduced to the multi-release phenomenon and will possibly show an interest in renting different versions of DVDs.

Netflix doesn't publish their stocking policy with regard to multiple DVD releases and maybe they should.

It's just the attitude that no one cares about features that I find galling.

I certainly don't care much about the extra feature content on the vast majority of the DVDs I rent or buy as I'm interested more in the movie itself. Even with my laserdiscs, which tended to come with extra content, I rarely ever watched any of that stuff.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by snaithbert

My point here is that from a "business standpoint," Netflix isn't that great a business. They do just enough to fulfull their obligations- and nothing more. The service that goes above and beyond and offers a truly wide variety of titles will doubtlessly flourish in the long run. After all, if DVD rental is all you do- you better do it really damn well.

Great post. You make some great points. I think Netflix does need to evolve as the DVD rental market changes but I'm reading more disapproval of their service out of simply not being able to rent any given version of any given DVD more than them actually providing a "poor" service.

Given the points you make about consumers demanding more out of their service, I'm surprised their subscrptions keep growing as more and more people sign up. Or are these people just idiots or something? I mean signing up for an "obviously" poor service? (No, I'm not being serious)

I would like to hear your ideas for how they would handle the "behind the scenes" issues to support the changes you think they should make. Their website interface is only one aspect to consider. How many copies do they buy? How do they keep the multiple releases properly organized so I don't get the theatrical release when I wanted to rent the director's cut, etc. I don't mean shipping the correct DVD in the correct sleeve but that being the wrong version but the wrong DVD being in the right sleeve (which matches the version being rented). Etc....

Lastly, are you Netflix subscriber and if you are why?

Peace...

[snaithbert]

Well tomdkat, you gotta look at it like this.

Suppose you bought a nice red convertible and when it showed up, it was a bright pink station wagon.

If it ran okay, would you say "a car's a car" and be satisfied?

No, I don't think so.

That's basically what you're settling for with Netflix when you want the special edition and they send you the original.

It IS the movie- but that's all it is. However, should you just say "I'm lucky to get anything" and keep yer yap shut?

I wouldn't, but to each his own.

As for how many people are signing up for their service, that I cannot say. Their subscribers may be up, but their profits are down, and that's what matters. I have no figures at my disposal, but I do hear quite frequently about much money Netflix loses every year. However, if you're correct and more and more people are signing up, then I guess these new arrivals either don't care about service (as long as they're getting SOME service) or their standards are just so low that they view Netflix as a perfect company that meets their every need. Again- to each his own. They don't do well by me, but if all you want is A movie and you don't want to be the power to decide which version, then Netflix is a great alternative.

As for how they handle the "behind the scenes" aspect, here's some suggestions.

1. Start a service that sells off the extra copies of the multiple titles you buy. This way you can overbuy now and then and still get back some money. And at the same time, your customers get good deals on used discs. Blockbuster does this and the results are excellent. It's one of the few policies they're actually winning accolades for. As for underbuying a title- if the customer demand is high (i.e. 500 people waiting for it) go buy more copies. Simple as that. A DVD rental service shouldn't run out of copies too frequently. As I've said before, if DVD rental is what you do- do it really, really well.

2. Initiate an overhaul of your website that accomodates special editions and then make sure all your fulfillment centers are trained on the fact that there are multiple copies of certain titles. It's that simple. The employees are the bottom line here. Let them know and make them learn. They're the ones who will ultimately decide whether you get the barebones edition or the special edition. If they add the ability to officially request certain editions, then Netflix is going to have to take the time to educate their employees about the difference and make sure the customers get the copy they requested. If it's part of the official service, Netflix can quite easily train their employees to make sure everyone gets the correct titles. All it requires is a bit of dilligence.

As for the human error of wrong sleeve, right DVD, etc- that I think we're just going to have to leave up to chance. It happens sometimes. But I don't think offering special edition DVDs will screw them up too badly. If their system is efficient and runs well, they should be able to add special editions without it messing everything up and causing the whole world to explode.

To answer your final question- yes I am a Netflix subscriber. But I'm not sure for how much longer. It's true they do send me DVDs. I never denied that. But as time goes by, I'm thinking I'd like to watch DVDs that I actually want to see (as nutty as that sounds). And it doesn't look like Netflix is going to carry those anytime soon (at least not officially) so I'm beginning to look around for a new service. The first one that actively offers special editions will have my business.

It comes down to what your priorities are. If getting a DVD (any DVD)is all you care about- then stick with Netflix. They do send out DVDs, no one's arguing that. But if you have particular desire to see certain titles, then you better find a site that does goes above and beyond. I thought that site would be Netflix, since I want to see very mainstream movies. But since they don't carry special editions- Netflix clearly isn't the service for me. I'm sure there's one out there that is.

To sum it up, I refuse to drive around in a bright orange station wagon- even if it does get good gas mileage.

Thank you.

Snaithbert

[tomdkat]

Great post...

Originally Posted by snaithbert

Suppose you bought a nice red convertible and when it showed up, it was a bright pink station wagon.

If it ran okay, would you say "a car's a car" and be satisfied?

No, I don't think so.

Nor would I. The thing is this isn't happening with Netflix either. It's not like I rented "Fellowship of the Ring" and got the EE version instead. People want to rent the EE version from Netflix which they are not renting to people even though they will rent the 2 discs of extra features to people. Your analogy would be reversed, in this case.

That's basically what you're settling for with Netflix when you want the special edition and they send you the original.

If you go to their site and rent a DVD thinking it's the SE and it turns out NOT to be, shame on you... the consumer. Netflix doesn't identify which version of any given DVD they rent. How many people ask them before buying or even before signing up? If this is information is a requirement for someone and they don't take the time to find out what the policies are up front, that's their problem. I view this as those who want to buy the OAR version of a DVD and pick up the fullscreen version because they weren't paying attention.

As for how many people are signing up for their service, that I cannot say. Their subscribers may be up, but their profits are down, and that's what matters. I have no figures at my disposal, but I do hear quite frequently about much money Netflix loses every year.

This perplexes me as well. I know they've been opening new distribution centers which incurs property costs, employee costs, additional DVD costs, etc. Their subscription rates must have been at a loss to attract people and now everyone is using the basic (i.e. cheap) plan and they are just not making their money back. Netflix is losing money.

However, if you're correct and more and more people are signing up, then I guess these new arrivals either don't care about service (as long as they're getting SOME service) or their standards are just so low that they view Netflix as a perfect company that meets their every need.

It has nothing to do with one's standards. For some, it's a convenience. For others, it's a viable option since they've got no local rental stores, etc. For others it's the no late fees and no due dates.

They don't do well by me, but if all you want is A movie and you don't want to be the power to decide which version, then Netflix is a great alternative.

I agree. I haven't been in my local BlockBuster but I don't recall seeing multiple versions of DVDs on their shelves for rent. Can other who rent more frequently comment on this. Does BlockBuster of Hollywood Video have the original AND SE versions of Boogie Nights available for rent on their shelves? For what it's worth, the website for BlockBuster lists the original version only. Since there weren't any changes in the movie between the two DVD releases that's a poor example. They also only list the theatrical version of Fellowship of the Ring on their site. I don't know how representative their site is of the selection of their stores but it looks to me like BlockBuster (at least based on their website) employs a similar stocking policy as Netflix except their selection possibly isn't as extensive. Anywho, I'll let others comment on this since I don't rent from BlockBuster or Hollywood Video. I might poke my head in one tonight and see what I can find.

1. Start a service that sells off the extra copies of the multiple titles you buy. This way you can overbuy now and then and still get back some money. And at the same time, your customers get good deals on used discs.

Excellent idea. I wonder if they've considered this themselves. If they are losing money, they might not have the credit to overbuy DVDs to better meet rental demand but this is still something they should definitely consider doing. I guess they would need to determine what a "good" stocking level would be. I would think they could analyze rental patterns for their inventory and make decisions based on that data.

2. Initiate an overhaul of your website that accomodates special editions and then make sure all your fulfillment centers are trained on the fact that there are multiple copies of certain titles. It's that simple. The employees are the bottom line here. Let them know and make them learn. They're the ones who will ultimately decide whether you get the barebones edition or the special edition. If they add the ability to officially request certain editions, then Netflix is going to have to take the time to educate their employees about the difference and make sure the customers get the copy they requested. If it's part of the official service, Netflix can quite easily train their employees to make sure everyone gets the correct titles. All it requires is a bit of dilligence.

Obviously this would need to be done but acquiring additional space to store DVDs might be an issue as well as possibly hiring more people to help meet increased demand as subscription numbers increase. The more people you have filling orders, the faster the orders can be shipped, etc. I also wonder what their postage costs are. Would their be additional costs to identify SE versions of DVDs from non-SE versions? How many iterations of SEs should be stocked? Again, I see the website and database changes to be the "easy" part.

Maybe adding a VOD-type serivce might help solve some of this. Can you imagine their vast selection being available on a VOD basis? Foreign films and obscure titles accessible NOW via VOD. I'm sure there would be some logistics to work out to make this fly but it might be an option.

As for the human error of wrong sleeve, right DVD, etc- that I think we're just going to have to leave up to chance. It happens sometimes. But I don't think offering special edition DVDs will screw them up too badly. If their system is efficient and runs well, they should be able to add special editions without it messing everything up and causing the whole world to explode.

I'm sure if they did start making SEs part of what they rent they would come up with ways to work out all these details. The question would be the cost to them for implementing this if there wouldn't be much interest at the consumer end. For example, when Fellowship of the Ring came out I'm sure they got a TON of rentals of this title. I don't know how well the EE would have rented. I would think a good percentage of their customers want the convenience of renting newly released movies first and foremost (no SE is out yet), then renting titles they hadn't seen in a LONG time, then exploring their vast and diverse selection of titles (the minority of which have multiple releases available for purchase). I know a number of people who watch a movie once and are done with it. They want to see it when it's "new" and then move on.

To answer your final question- yes I am a Netflix subscriber. But I'm not sure for how much longer. It's true they do send me DVDs. I never denied that. But as time goes by, I'm thinking I'd like to watch DVDs that I actually want to see (as nutty as that sounds). And it doesn't look like Netflix is going to carry those anytime soon (at least not officially) so I'm beginning to look around for a new service. The first one that actively offers special editions will have my business.

That's cool. I'm not sure why you haven't terminated your subscription yet but that's your business and not mine. However, I fully respect your decision to find a DVD rental service that suits your needs more than continuing to use Netflix and complain about the service all the time. At least you're doing something about it.

But if you have particular desire to see certain titles, then you better find a site that does goes above and beyond. I thought that site would be Netflix, since I want to see very mainstream movies.

I would think Netflix is that site since I think they've got the largest selection out there. I could be mistaken. Netflix doesn't stock every title out there but that's a different issue than them not stocking SEs of titles they do stock.

But since they don't carry special editions- Netflix clearly isn't the service for me. I'm sure there's one out there that is.

Fair enough...

Peace...