Titan AE

[Chest Rockwell]

So I picked up Titan AE on Monday (imagine my glee when I saw that Wal-Mart had irresponsibly put it out on the shelf over a week early).

It looks and sounds fantastic. Almost. I know not many people have it yet, but is there any word about glitches in the DTS track? It could be my setup, but there was some distortion in the center channel at a couple of points in the movie. If anybody knows about this, please let me know. I'll also subject my sound system to some scrutiny.

Aside from that one problem, this is one of the best DTS soundtracks I've ever heard. Very pleased. The video is superb as well.

[clortho]

I picked it up yesterday (at my Walmart too!) I watched it last night and heard no distortion in the center channel that I recall. I'll lisen to some bits more tonight (do you have any chapters/timecodes I could listen to specifically?) and see what I can hear.

Clortho

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[Eye]

I have it as well, but I haven't watch it yet. Hmmmm. . .Hope there aren't any probs. with it.

Love the animation. Hate the story.

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Eye
Co-Moderator Bargain Area


[This message has been edited by Eye (edited 11-01-2000).]

[Chest Rockwell]

Yeah, sorry I didn't mention the time before. It's when Cale is escaping from the Drej ship. As the Drej are marching, there is distortion at their footfalls and there is also distortion when Cale hits the floor. It could be that my center isn't handling the bass. I'll check the crosover and stuff.

[Tyler Durden]

Hi Chest

There are no encoding problems on this Dts soundtrack (that I am aware of) and any distortion present is due to incorrect settings of your system - you have already said that you will check the crossovers and this is what I would suggest. The two points you mention are quite dynamic in terms of low frequency information. As well as having a surge in peak level output. Any distortion you hear may also be due to the fact that you have your system set way too loud for your speakers. DD and Dts can contain incredibly dynamic soundtracks that have surges in SPL that many would do well to be wary of - depending on their systems.

Hope that helps.

T

[Chest Rockwell]

What you say makes sense, Tyler and I am aware of many of these issues. What complicates things is that my system was fine for all the recent DTS releases, including Pitch Black, U-571 - which has some great and powerful lows, and even the controversial Jurassic Park. I tweaked my system quite a bit after all the posts about a possible JP glitch. I definitely have the center set to 'small' and the subs are more than powerful enough to take the rest. I never had this distortion with JP or U-571 which I would expect to cause it way before Titan. I wish I knew somebody else with a DTS system so I could double check my disc.

[chlngr1970]

Chest Rockwell

You might try taking the disc to one or your local high end shops to demo a new receiver or speakers. They will most likely acommadate you and you get to check out some of the really cool new gear. If you lived in the N. Texas area, you could use my system to test your disc

j

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[clortho]

I watched the movie again last night, there was no distortion I could hear during the film. This is probably going to sound completely stupid, but are you sure it isn't the small electrical sounds that are made? I noticed some of the effects are quite subtle on my system and could be mistaken for noise possibly.

Clortho

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[Chest Rockwell]

Well, I did some playing around and here's what I found. I tried adjusting my fronts and the center back and forth from small to large. I also tried several different crossover settings from 60hz-200hz (normally 100hz). None of this made any difference, the distortion is still there. I reset everything to normal.

Then, I tried listening to the Dolby 5.1 track instead. It ain't there on the Dolby. If nothing else, that proves that I wasn't dumb enough to confuse the electrical sound effects with distortion. I did consider this before, because the distortion did sound a little bit like the sound effect they use when Cale opens the force field with his fingers. But, nope - it's definitely distortion and its definitely only present in the DTS track.

So I am left to assume it's a problem with the disc. Since regardless of my speaker size and crossover setting its always there. Also since its always exactly in the same place, I can't imagine its a decoding glitch in my receiver (Outlaw 1050). Does that sound logical?

Is it possible to have a single defective disc, when the rest of them are all OK?

Taking it to a high end audio store is a good idea. Maybe I'll stop in Myer Emco some time this week. Any other thoughts?

[Eye]

Well, I found distortion on my Titan AE disc as well (DTS track). It's the scene where they're in a boat under the hydrogen trees and they're trying to escape the Drej. I messed with my set-up as well and I still think I hear distortion. I haven't had time to check out the DD5.1 track.

I swear I hear crackling. . .Hmmmm. . .could be my Center. . .don't really know. It doesn't bother me tooo much and it's pretty quick.

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[Chest Rockwell]

Eye, did you notice anything in the part I was talking about? I'll have to go back and see if there is anything in the hydrogen trees section. I wonder if there can be different glitches in different discs as a result of bad replication. Could this be related to the lower bit-rate DTS tracks on the DTS/DD combo discs?

[Crazy_Bee]

The noise heard, I also happen to live in the same house as Chest Rockwell, is what would best described as if one were to encode an MP3 from a WAV file WAY too fast and there were encoding errors. You know, those pops?

The center is set to small, which if some of you people here were to actually read your owners manuals, you would find that in most cases that means the reciever imposes a 300Hz to 350Hz (depending on the reciever) high-pass crossover on the speaker. So, no frequencies below 300Hz will reach that speaker. It now has the bass response of a telephone. Also, since the speakers happen to be mine and I know their specs the low-end frequency limit of that center is around 320Hz or so. Combining the small speaker setting as well as the natural crossover rate of a closed box system (12dB/octave) you are looking at anywhere from a 36dB to 48dB cut at 80Hz. We'd be deaf or the speaker would be non-functional by the time bass leaked in.

Also, crossovers themselves are fairly brute force devices in controlling frequency response. The very nature of the components used and how they work would prohibit any such pops UNLESS a component of the crossover itself is failing. There is no "magical" frequency combination that could create pops. And, since the Outlaw, like many other new recievers, uses active filtering via a DSP, the DSP would be the culprit if it were not to be the encoding itself.

Chest, there is also another factor you forgot to mention to everyone that I just remembered, we are using a DxR3 on a PII 266. It very well maybe the DxR3 or computer since it is the computer not the DxR3 that decodes the audio from the disc to be sent to the Outlaw.

[P7A77]

Crazy_Bee, welcome to the forums!

Ha-ha, beat all you moderators this time. Nyuck.

[Tyler Durden]

Hello Crazy Bee

I have read your post with great interest as you claim that the frequency response of your centre is 320Hz - this is incredibly high! What speakers are you using?!? At the very least you should be using speakers that have a frequency response to at least 120Hz if not lower! Most HT setups would crossover at around the 40 or 80Hz mark with 120Hz being reserved for the tiniest of bookshelf speakers. I do not understand how you can think of putting a Dts soundtrack through these speakers without causing damage. Also you say that your centre goes to 320Hz but that your sub is set to cut in at 100Hz - so what's happened to those frequencies between 100 and 320??? You've also told us that your other speakers go to about 300 - so these missing frequncies are going where exactly? Also, I hope your sub is huge and very, very expensive - for a sub to handle frequencies of 100Hz and below from all 5 channels is a massive amount of work and one that not even my 2 subs would be able to handle without complaining - especially on a Dts track! I am assuming that your sub will not crossover any higher than this - I cannot think of any that do! Your system is, therefore, losing all frequencies between 100Hz and 300Hz!

Frankly, and I mean no criticism here, it's no wonder you are hearing distortion or are experiencing problems - at what SPL level have you set your speakers?

Cheers

T

[Crazy_Bee]

Uhhh.. Tyler, in no way did I say that the all other speakers were set to small. The front left and right are set to large and the rears are set to small. The small setting PREVENTS low frequencies from getting to them. Also, their natural low frequency cut-off due to design is about 320Hz so there is a roll-off of 12dB/octave anyways. I can set them to large but not having to try and reproduce bass also cleans up the sound.

And, yes, the middle channel and rears are indeed tiny POS's that were intended for a Pro-Logic system. However, it works extremely well for the price (which happens to be next to nothing). Everyone who listens to the set-up is quite amazed and they do the job extremely well. I understand the concept of being surrounded by full-range speakers, but, human hearing is greatly diminished in listening to sound from the rear. Both in pin pointing the location of the sound as well as frequency response. You can pick up any book on audio engineering and they will go into great length of this and may even provide a graph of the human range of hearing in relation to sound coming from behind and from the front.

I am in the process of building 6 new speakers. Which is quite a tedious task. They will be able to accomodate anything.

The left and right front to have a response down to 70Hz or so, however, setting the crossover at 100Hz instead of the standard 80Hz improves the sound. They each have a single 6 inch driver which does not have enough surface area to create low frequencies in the way we would like. They can do it but not effectively. Therefore no point.

And, I have two 15 inch sub woofers that WILL CREATE WIND ON DEMAND if need be. You want a pressure drop in the room? No problemo. Besdies, I prefer to not let any speaker try and reproduce low bass frequencies. Best to leave that to the sub. It is very hard and very expensive to find drivers that can reproduce low frequency without becoming exponentially inefficient. They do exist, however, they are very expensive. 20Hz is simply a number and not necessarily a measure of quality.

BTW: there is no standard for frequency response in relation speakers and I have seen very few manufacturers provide the dB at the lowest frequency as well as the highest. Amongst other things.

[1138]

Welcome to the forum Crazy_Bee!

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[Chest Rockwell]

Wow...I didn't know CrazyeBee was posting now.
Anyhoo. I don't pretend to know the specificts of speaker design and frequency response and such. But since the distortion is at the same point in the movie, reliably, no matter what the crossover or speaker size is set to makes me think that the fault lies with the disc. If it was a problem with the speaker set up the distortion would change with the different crossover settings. And if it were a problem with the pass through from the player, I don't think it would be as reliably reproduced (100%).

I have to think this is a disc problem and I must wonder if its worth buying a new copy. Which would kind of negate the whole early Wal-Mart purchase...but hey!

[Tyler Durden]

Hiya Crazy Bee

Hey - you know your system better than I and I would not wish to sound presumptious! I gleaned from your post that all your speakers were set to small, my apologies if I was wrong. However, you say that the crossovers are set to prevent low frequency info from reaching your speakers - of course! That is what a crossover id designed to do but low frequency info does not have any significant impact below 120Hz so I mantain that you have your crossovers set significantly higher than many would recommend. Also, if your sub sounds better at 100Hz then that's great but again this is quite high if your mains go down to 70 and will mean that you will be getting a rather homogenous sound. The whole point of being able to set crossovers in HT is so that we can ensure that our sub cuts in as our other speakers bottom out - but if it sound good then leave it be.

As for getting the sub to reproduce the low frequencies of course this should result in a cleaner sound as it is often best not to have speakers working at their limits but again your set up is quite, 'unique' shall we say and this, I believe, is the cause of the distortion you hear. Using sepakers that are, let us be frank, inadequate for reproducing the frequencies and SPL levels found in Dts is bound to cause problems.

Finally, you claim that human hearing is greatly diminished when listening from the rear, including direction and frequency response - where on earth did you read this? I would not say that hearing is greatly diminished at all - it is more difficult for the human ear to distinguish various sounds but our ears do not have a frequency cut off depending upon whether the sound is at our back or side!! The human ear has a natural frequency response much like a speaker but we can be aware of sounds beyond our level of hearing - this is why many maintain that vinyl sounds better than CD - vinyl has a higher frequency response that extends to the limits of human hearing, unlike CD which has a much lower response - we may not be conscious of hearing these frequencies but they do make a difference - as do bass frequencies below 10Hz. Also, I would disagree that the human ear cannot distuingish directionality from the rear - this is simply not the case at all. Also, you might want to try placing your rear speakers at the side of the listening position, rather than behind it - this can have a very beneficial effect. My advice would be to get some speakers that are more suitable for a HT system - speakers designed for Pro-Logic will be woefully inadequate for the newer digital systems.

Cheers

T

[Crazy_Bee]

Only the center and rears are set to small. There IS NO POINT IN SETTING THEM TO LARGE IF THEY CAN NOT REPRODUCE FREQUENCIES BELOW 300HZ!!!! Even though the box limits the low frequencies down to 300Hz or so the driver itself WILL RESPOND. This is bad since it does not sound very well. You can hear them try and try and it just ain't working out. Also, they are closed box system which means as you start getting closer to the box's cut-off point there is more cone excursion. If I set them to 120Hz crossover and hit them hard they WILL BLOW OUT.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!

My front left and right are an older pair of B&W book shelves. They can reproduce frequencies down to 70Hz, BUT, like I had said before, it is pointless since the driver itself is too small to move enough air at those frequencies. There is a relation of the physical driver size to how low of a frequency it can reproduce with a certain amount of power. Things can be done to modify this but these speakers were not built that way. It is pointless to do that. The only thing I would gain from that is being able to say: "I have my crossover set at 80Hz, blah blah blah."

Also, once again since these are a closed box design there is increasing cone exscursion with low frequencies and if I set them any lower they begin to distort since the cone is way the hell out there and then it might need to reproduce something in the 4th or 5th octave and the motor of the driver has to work against the mass of the cone, the surround and spider, and the air. Plus, there is a delay associated with the driver pulling the cone back and accelerating for higher frequencies. If I have them reproduce those lower frequencies I loose the acceleration it would otherwise maintain and it sounds sloppy. This is true for all speakers of any design.

One is REALLY pushing their (note: there are a few exceptions) luck with a 2-way system reproducing low frequencies (for all you people out there with 2-ways). You at the very LEAST need a 3-way system. It is extremely difficult due to the electrical and physical mechanics going on for a 2-way to race up and down between low frequencies and upper mid-range frequencies before its crossover point to do it all well at high volume levels. This is a common and known drawback of two-way systems. This is why they have a lower rating as far as power handling can go.

At normal listening levels with no anticipated sonic booms or depth charge explosions it is not a problem. But, since people like to listen to movies a bit louder than normal and there are huge and way emphasized bass sounds occuring it is better to let the sub take care of that.

Tyler, you obviously did not read Chest's previous post. He set the crossover's WAY high and all speakers to small. At that point, when the sub crossover begins at 200Hz and the speakers do not come into play at 300hz I really doubt there is any bass at all leaking up there. Especially since we tried it at different volume levels. And, you should also pay attention to the fact that I have repeatedly mentioned that they are set to small, nothing below 300Hz hits them, and the speaker itself limits that response. Damn dude.

The information I got on human hearing has come from two books on sound studio's (recording and reproduction) they I rented from the library and my Audio Engineer's Cyclopedia.

I am not saying we are totally deaf to sound behind us but that there is a definate difference in how sound from rear is percieved as well as how well we can (in relation to frequency response). This has nothing to do with my system set-up. This is a "how humans are born" type thing. One could possibly solve this problem if they had four ears or has ears that could move around like with a horse.

BTW: crossovers have a clop to them. This is by what i mean when I say 12dB/octave. So, when my fronts are set with a crossover at 100Hz the slop for high frequency cut off and low frequency cut off begins. If one were to play sounds of specific frequencies this what the SPL drop will be like:

Front Speakers:
100Hz: no drop
80Hz: ~3dB drop (end of 2nd, start of 3rd octave)
40Hz: 15dB drop (start of 2nd, end of 1st octave)

Sub's
100Hz: no drop
160Hz: ~9dB drop (end of 3rd, start of fourth octave)
320Hz: 21dB drop (end of 4th, start of 5th octave)

So, as you can see, the slop is somewhat gradual as the speaker frequency responses begin to taper off.

I highly suggest people play around with their LFE crossover point. 80Hz is, once again, simply a number. Just because your crossover is not set to that point does not mean your system is crap.

And, Tyler, you also failed to read my other post thouroughly in which I said I was building six (6) new speakers. They are going to be 3-way's. Dual 6.5" carbon fiber woofers, 4" carbin fiber mid, Linaeum tweeters. I have tested each and every one of the 12 woofers as well as all possible pairings to create 6 pairs of drivers that have very similar specifications. I have also tested all the mid's and I got lucky in that they are all from the same production run and there is a 5% peak difference between them. Same situation with the tweeters.

The box alignement is SBB4 (ported for those who do not know), the frequency response will be flat down to 76Hz. I will be using 4th order Bessel filters with staggered crossover points to resolve some phase issues. I will also be using some tweaks like zobel networks, etc. Each box will look identical from the outised but the internal volume and port length will very depending on the pair of drivers used.

I have done this before. Actually, I have done this three (3) times before. As well as building subs, reconing speakers, tested and rebuilt crossovers, built electronic crossovers, repaired and tweaked auio amps, pre-amps, etc. The list goes on and on. I am almost 25 and I my Dad gave me my first audio and electronic books when I was 12 (for Christmas). I have not let up since. In addition, I have had several lengthy and long lasting relationships with people who work in the fields of audio and electronics. Not salespeople, etc. Mainly people who actually build, test, or design.

I know what I am talking about. If you would pause, read, and process what I say you will learn something.

[Tyler Durden]

Hiya Crazy Bee

I have indeed learned something - and that is that you should read my posts thoroughly as well - your reply above is completely superfluous to what I have been saying - I have not commented on whether or not your speakers are set to small large or whatever - you could set them to whatever you like, it makes no difference to me. All I am stating that your present configuration is poor and that using speakers that are woefully inadequate is a bad idea when using digital systems. The fact that you are building speakers is immaterial as it has no bearing on your system at the present time as you are not using them as we write.

Thanks for your long reply but I have to say that I do not understand your point at all - re-read my post very sloooowwwwlllly and carefully and you will see that your response was unnecessary.

Also, I maintain that if you have your crossover set at 200 and your speakers don't come into play until 300 than you are losing frequencies - what happens may I ask to the frequencies between 200 and 300??? If your sub is reproducing everything below 200 (which is ridiculously high) and your speakers reproducing everything above 300 - then what's going on between the 2. Of course 80 is just a number - duh! But it is a valuable reference to be used within an HT system - whether you like it or not.

Finally, if you know so very much about what you are talking about - why has it been necessary for you to post questions relating to a problem you are experiencing on a forum such as this - it sounds to me as though you feel you are eminently capable of sorting this one out for yourself. In future you might want to think about being more gracious to people who have posted advice in reply to a problem you are claiming to experience. I will waste no more time trying to aid people such as yourself - suffice to say that if you are hearing distortion then TURN IT DOWN - your speakers obviously can't handle it - obvious really. But then I would have thought a person of your obvious talents would be able to tell the difference between distortion and encoding errors? But then again, maybe not.

Cheers

T





[This message has been edited by Tyler Durden (edited 11-10-2000).]

[Dominik Pfleghaar]

Please, guys.... don't let this degrade into a pissing contest.
Let's all try and have a cool and objective discussion of the matters, ok?

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[Quark]

I can pee longer and harder than anyone here any day

Well just have to say that this thread looks more and more like a hardware forum topic!

Originally posted by Dominik Pfleghaar:
Please, guys.... don't let this degrade into a pissing contest.
Let's all try and have a cool and objective discussion of the matters, ok?

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Quark
My DVD-list


[This message has been edited by Quark (edited 11-10-2000).]

[Tyler Durden]

Hiya Dom

That's what I was trying to do - I just don't get it! What was in my original post (not the last one) that got Crazy Bee so riled up! I have no idea! Jeez, sheesh and so on - I was only trying to help by giving some good advice!

Never mind...

[Crazy_Bee]

It was Chest that posted originally, not me, pay attention. I already knew that it was not the speakers and have been posting why it is not.

And, we have tried it at all volume levels. there is no differance. That was the FIRST thing we tried. I did not bother mentioning it since I thought that was rather an obvious first thing to try when troubleshooting.

It is NOT speaker distortion but indeed a replication error. You, however, think otherwise. I have already described the "distortion" heard by saying it sounds like when you ENCODE an MP3 at way to fast of a speed and you get errors and you start hearing pops in the play back. This is EXACTLY how it sounds.

Also, why would it distort at ONLY THIS ONE SCENE?!?!?!?! At the end when the Titan is fired up and there is bass rumbling throughout the house as Planet Bob is being created, NO DISTORTION. Nor in the ice fields when you hear the ice creaking or at ANY OTHER TIME.

NOR WITH ANY OTHER MOVIE DOES IT HAPPEN.

I have stated that the center and rear are from a Pro-Logic system. The primary focus of these posts has been centered on them and how they are NOT the culprit. See above on encoding and below on testing them.

Also, when the sub was set to 200Hz and the fronts to small that was during TESTING by Chest to see if it would matter. It did not. This was to PURPOSELY LIMIT the bass going to the center and all other speakers to see if it would alleviate the problem. Everything was returned to Normal as Chest has ALREADY stated. Once again, please read all posts.

You are the one that needs to read the posts more slowly. I suggest you re-read them and see where you erred.

Superflous reply? Come on man! The content of my posts, aside from my speaker building part, has all been in reply to YOUR statements or was used to provide a perspective or add information. That is NOT superflous.

Superflous is you jibber-jabbing all over the place pretending you know something because you have read some magazines.

Gimmie a break.

It's obvious you can not provide adequate consultation to ANYONE since it is clear that you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Nor, do you even read the posts correctly if at all. This is a common theme with you.

Also, what advice have you even offered?

Hello? Well? Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Tyler Durden]

Woah there! Calm down and take a pill or something. My goodness me! There really is no need to get personal here - you know absolutely nothing about me or what I do or my background so please, leave that to people who do. All I have done here is try to offer advice on a problem posted - if you don't like that advice, I am sorry but nothing in my post was inflammatory or in any way attacking - so chill out. To attack a member of this forum in such a way as you have leads me to believe that you need a lesson in manners.

[Dominik Pfleghaar]

Okay... this doesn't lead anywhere.
Feel free to continue this discussion (in a mannered way, that is) in the hardware forum by creating a new topic there.

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