When Is Too Much on a Single Disc... Too Much?? - DVDfile.com forum for DVD, Blu-Ray, and HD-DVD

Czar · 02-08-2001, 04:16 AM

Following a train of thought I had replying to another post...

I am starting to lean towards a feeling that studios are trying to cram too much on one disc and many players are having problems filtering through it all. Seamless Branching, Commentaries, White Rabbits, PIP, etc... on the same movie has to give any DVD player a fit while decoding! We didn't hear about as many problems with movie titles when all you got was a movie, a trailer, and maybe a single commentary. I am sure DVD technology has gone far beyond the scope of players built 2 years ago! And who goes out and buys the latest player every few months just to keep up with it all?

I can see the advantage of having two discs. It leaves more room on one for the heart of the collection... The Movie. Another disc can handle all of the other extras without sacrificing quality You also get the feeling of getting more for your money - often times you do with all the extra disc space! Personally, I prefer 2 discs.

Thoughts?

***1138*** · 02-08-2001, 04:58 AM

Well, I don' tthink lack of space is causing these problmes. It's just software incompatibilities. Newer DVD's are just starting to utilize all the possible features of the DVD spec and a lot of older players couldn't really be tested for these features becuase there were no discs using them at the time.

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1138
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Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

Ratboy · 02-08-2001, 08:16 AM

I definately like one disc, especially when it allows extras to be incorporated into the freature. Some two disc sets feel like the studio threw everything they had in just for padding. There is a point when the extras just aren't interesting.

Czar · 02-08-2001, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ratboy:
Some two disc sets feel like the studio threw everything they had in just for padding. There is a point when the extras just aren't interesting.

That is what's so good about 2 disc sets. ALL of the extras for movie and historian buffs! I am sure there are more people out there who would rather have more than less hence Criterion sets being created

Look at what is coming... the 3 disc set of Cleopatra with over 7+ hours of extras!

The way I see it, give it to me all at once and get it over with. No more disc to buy later just to get something that isn't on the other. But at the same time don't throw it all on one disc to make my low end or older player hiccup trying to sort all this information out!

Czar · 02-08-2001, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1138:
Well, I don' tthink lack of space is causing these problmes. It's just software incompatibilities

True, to a certain extent. Placing too much on one disc leaves more room for errors to occur, especially when they are very complex discs with seamless branching and such which has problems playing on some players.

Why should even a few people suffer not being able to watch the movie they wanted to see and own?

***1138*** · 02-08-2001, 04:49 PM

But again, things like seamless branching have nothing to do with how much of the disc is used. That's just a software incompatibility. With extras like seamless branching, it has to be on the same disc in order to seamlessly branch into the movie and it will still be buggy with DVD players even if it's on a second disc. It's goning to be buggy on players no matter where it is on any sizely (OK, I probably made that up) filled disc. All these movies with a lot of incompatibilities aren't going to suddenly play better if their extrtas are spread out across discs unless they're fundamentally chnaged in their structure. But then that could be done on the one disc anyway.

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1138
Hardware forum moderator | DVDFile Forum Greeter
Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

Taxi · 02-08-2001, 05:28 PM

More extras are better, always, for the reasons given above. I always prefer two discs instead of one double sided disc.

I also think that studios should push the technology as far as they can. If older players can't keep up...Well, you're probably gonna have to replace your original player at some point in time anyway. Better for you to upgrade, than to hold the format back. (What a shame it would be if nobody tried seamless branching because it doesn't work on some players.)

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Taxi
DVDFile Forum Administrator

Drexl · 02-08-2001, 06:55 PM

A case in point for trying to put too much on one disc would be "Annie." Two different transfers of a film with a running time of 2 hours and 7 minutes, plus two trailers (one of which is for a different movie!) is pushing it too far. Oh, and this is all on one side.

[This message has been edited by Drexl (edited 02-08-2001).]

Merin · 02-08-2001, 08:11 PM

On the other hand, I liked having the two separate transfers on one disc. It really teaches people why "those darn black bars" are necessary & better than watching a pan & scan movie.

Wesly Moore · 02-08-2001, 08:49 PM

I feel strongly that it is most important to allow sufficient space on the disc for the film itself, so as low a level of compression as possible can be used. If the studio (or whoever) decides to cram so many extras onto the disc that the film has to undergo higher and more noticeable compression, this is unacceptable. After all, it's the film you're buying, right?

On a different tangent, I've also seen discs that include pointless, uninteresting, and downright stupid extras. Why bother?

I suppose it's possible to include so many extras that it overwhelms the viewer. This may detract from the film itself or from some key supplementary materials that might be really worthwhile, but got lost in the crowd.

In short...the film is the main event. Extras are just that--a bonus. If they don't illuminate the process of making the film, they are a pointless waste of space and time (and the continuum doesn't tolerate that sort of thing gladly).

------------------
Wesly Moore
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weslymoore@aol.com
My collection...out of control

They mostly come at night. Mostly.

Czar · 02-08-2001, 08:53 PM

I think some are missing the point here. Yes, players will have incompatibility problems no matter what. The issue isn't that features like seamless branching, white rabbits, etc... do or don't play but rather should they be there at all in combination with so many other features.

There has to be coding somewhere to make all these elements work with each other taking up disc space, and the decoder/processor has to sift through all the different commands to make it work the way you say for it to work.

DreamWorks just had an online chat session last night at The Digital Bits and they even admitted not putting too much on the Gladiator DVD because of sacrificing picture quality for extra features including some things we take for granted!

No, I don't think people should go backwards or give up new features but it does hint to another post that DVD people are getting kinda greedy wanting everything for nothing and too lazy to change discs!

Fine, I don't see anything wrong with seamless branching and such on "Disc 1" so place things like trailers, DVD-ROM features, Text items, etc.. on "Disc 2" and make more space for revamped coding on fewer layers that isn't so compressed (cramped) and can be easily read by all players (hence DreamWorks comment stating you have to give and take if you want a bunch of stuff on one disc).

[This message has been edited by Czar (edited 02-08-2001).]

***1138*** · 02-08-2001, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Czar:
...make more space for revamped coding on fewer layers that isn't so compressed (cramped) and can be easily read by all players...

You keep insinuating that the cramped space causes buginess in the disc and makes it harder for some players to play it. That's simply not true. The buginess lies in the coding, not the crampedness of the disc. All a cramped disc will affect, as has been said, is the picture quality. But picture quality isn't what makes these things buggy. It's just features that are either being used inccorectly and/or aren't supported correctly by the player itself. The only reason to go to two discs is to maintian high picture quality, include more features (ie more extras, DTS, commentaries, etc), or because lots of people don't like flippers and would rather just have it on two discs. Like I said before, spreading this stuff out over two discs isn't going to prevent the software incompatibilities.

------------------
1138
Hardware forum moderator | DVDFile Forum Greeter
Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

[This message has been edited by 1138 (edited 02-08-2001).]

tomdkat · 02-09-2001, 12:17 AM

You know, I have the ultimate solution to this problem. If you guys all go out and trade in your DVD players for the Pioneer Elite DV-37 then you won't ever have anymore problems and your lives will be much improved! :-)

(Of course, I'm only joking.....)

Peace.....

Czar · 02-09-2001, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1138:
You keep insinuating that the cramped space causes buginess in the disc and makes it harder for some players to play it. That's simply not true.

Maybe "cramped" is not the correct term for what I am commenting on? I am thinking in 3-D and using laws of physics here:

What I am saying is that as the laser beam travels along its path it is decoding all sorts of information which is centered in one spot or another. Am I wrong in assuming that coding for added features such as commentary tracks, isolated commentaries, branching, DTS, Dolby 5.1, and so on are not placed elsewhere on the disc but all gathered in the same spot? As you add more features you add more code for that same exact spot to make it work in sync (hence cramped). Else wise the laser would be zig-zaging all over the disc reading one piece of code here, another there, and adding it all up -- which would slow down processing and wear out the hardware in no time!

What you are saying is that players can't read all this mass of info in one spot -- filtering out what the user has turned on or not and separating the movie from the features. I am saying that there has to be a point where the studios add too many features linked to the movie which can cause problems other than reduced picture quality because of too much info in one spot forcing lower bit rates (cramped). Take some of the added features which are isolated from the movie and move them to another disc, leaving more room for the movie to spread out (higher bit rates) meaning the player won't have to work as hard leaving less room for errors. [my highs and lows may be reversed here, I am not sure, but you get the picture]

I believe I have said all I can and may be on the wrong track but don't think so. The solution is not to throw out your old player just because it can't play a certain "advanced technology" title but to get the studios to adapt a little more since it is growing faster than one's $$$$ can keep up with

[This message has been edited by Czar (edited 02-08-2001).]

***1138*** · 02-09-2001, 08:40 AM

A DVD has the exact same amount of info in every single spot. It's just zipping along read 'high' or 'low' from each individual pit. There's no variation in information density. Thus, the percent of space on a disc used, no matter the content, has nothing to do with incompatibilities. It's just the meaning of the information that matters, not where it is on the disc.

As a side note, hopefully every single DVD uses all of it's space anyway. Whatever the extras are not taking up should be deicated to rasing the bit rate of the video.

------------------
1138
Hardware forum moderator | DVDFile Forum Greeter
Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

***chlngr1970*** · 02-09-2001, 12:32 PM

I say that anything that causes the picture or sound quality to suffer is to much. They come first and are the reasons I am buying the film to begin with. You compress more to add meaningless "extras" then I will be disapointed. After all, I may only watch the extras once, and sometimes not at all.

j

------------------
Co-Moderator
Software Forum
~Rather than question the wisdom, question your own lack of understanding!~
My DVD Tracker page - Click Here to help get Say Anything on DVD!

sabbey · 03-11-2001, 04:33 AM

I definitely think there is way too much on most discs these days. Sheesh, I have a hard enough time keeping up with all the featurettes, commentary and iso scores as it is. However, at the same time it's nice to know they are there! So, unless it makes the video real bad, I don't care if they put all of it on the disc.

However, when there is that much to be included, it really is for the best to have an second disc for the bonus material. Such as the way Gladiator was released. Just as long as they don't do flippers! Argh, I hate those! Especially if it is just to get an pan&scan version of the film on the disc. IMO, those are just about worthless, much like DVD-18'!

------------------
Regards,
Sean Robert Abbey

02-08-2001, 04:16 AM	#1 (permalink)
Czar Actor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Richmond, VA	When Is Too Much on a Single Disc... Too Much?? Following a train of thought I had replying to another post... I am starting to lean towards a feeling that studios are trying to cram too much on one disc and many players are having problems filtering through it all. Seamless Branching, Commentaries, White Rabbits, PIP, etc... on the same movie has to give any DVD player a fit while decoding! We didn't hear about as many problems with movie titles when all you got was a movie, a trailer, and maybe a single commentary. I am sure DVD technology has gone far beyond the scope of players built 2 years ago! And who goes out and buys the latest player every few months just to keep up with it all? I can see the advantage of having two discs. It leaves more room on one for the heart of the collection... The Movie. Another disc can handle all of the other extras without sacrificing quality You also get the feeling of getting more for your money - often times you do with all the extra disc space! Personally, I prefer 2 discs. Thoughts?

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02-08-2001, 04:58 AM	#2 (permalink)
*1138* Producer/Admin Careful, or I'll ban myself... Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: San Jose, CA	Well, I don' tthink lack of space is causing these problmes. It's just software incompatibilities. Newer DVD's are just starting to utilize all the possible features of the DVD spec and a lot of older players couldn't really be tested for these features becuase there were no discs using them at the time. ------------------ 1138 Hardware forum moderator \| DVDFile Forum Greeter Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

02-08-2001, 08:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ratboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2000	I definately like one disc, especially when it allows extras to be incorporated into the freature. Some two disc sets feel like the studio threw everything they had in just for padding. There is a point when the extras just aren't interesting.

02-08-2001, 04:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
*1138* Producer/Admin Careful, or I'll ban myself... Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: San Jose, CA	But again, things like seamless branching have nothing to do with how much of the disc is used. That's just a software incompatibility. With extras like seamless branching, it has to be on the same disc in order to seamlessly branch into the movie and it will still be buggy with DVD players even if it's on a second disc. It's goning to be buggy on players no matter where it is on any sizely (OK, I probably made that up) filled disc. All these movies with a lot of incompatibilities aren't going to suddenly play better if their extrtas are spread out across discs unless they're fundamentally chnaged in their structure. But then that could be done on the one disc anyway. ------------------ 1138 Hardware forum moderator \| DVDFile Forum Greeter Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

02-08-2001, 05:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
Taxi Admin Emeritus Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Orygun	More extras are better, always, for the reasons given above. I always prefer two discs instead of one double sided disc. I also think that studios should push the technology as far as they can. If older players can't keep up...Well, you're probably gonna have to replace your original player at some point in time anyway. Better for you to upgrade, than to hold the format back. (What a shame it would be if nobody tried seamless branching because it doesn't work on some players.) ------------------ Taxi DVDFile Forum Administrator

02-08-2001, 06:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
Drexl Actor Join Date: Jun 2000	A case in point for trying to put too much on one disc would be "Annie." Two different transfers of a film with a running time of 2 hours and 7 minutes, plus two trailers (one of which is for a different movie!) is pushing it too far. Oh, and this is all on one side. [This message has been edited by Drexl (edited 02-08-2001).]

02-08-2001, 08:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
Merin Supporting Actor Join Date: Jan 2001	On the other hand, I liked having the two separate transfers on one disc. It really teaches people why "those darn black bars" are necessary & better than watching a pan & scan movie.

02-08-2001, 08:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
Wesly Moore Actor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA	I feel strongly that it is most important to allow sufficient space on the disc for the film itself, so as low a level of compression as possible can be used. If the studio (or whoever) decides to cram so many extras onto the disc that the film has to undergo higher and more noticeable compression, this is unacceptable. After all, it's the film you're buying, right? On a different tangent, I've also seen discs that include pointless, uninteresting, and downright stupid extras. Why bother? I suppose it's possible to include so many extras that it overwhelms the viewer. This may detract from the film itself or from some key supplementary materials that might be really worthwhile, but got lost in the crowd. In short...the film is the main event. Extras are just that--a bonus. If they don't illuminate the process of making the film, they are a pointless waste of space and time (and the continuum doesn't tolerate that sort of thing gladly). ------------------ Wesly Moore ------------------ weslymoore@aol.com My collection...out of control They mostly come at night. Mostly.

02-08-2001, 08:53 PM	#11 (permalink)
Czar Actor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Richmond, VA	I think some are missing the point here. Yes, players will have incompatibility problems no matter what. The issue isn't that features like seamless branching, white rabbits, etc... do or don't play but rather should they be there at all in combination with so many other features. There has to be coding somewhere to make all these elements work with each other taking up disc space, and the decoder/processor has to sift through all the different commands to make it work the way you say for it to work. DreamWorks just had an online chat session last night at The Digital Bits and they even admitted not putting too much on the Gladiator DVD because of sacrificing picture quality for extra features including some things we take for granted! No, I don't think people should go backwards or give up new features but it does hint to another post that DVD people are getting kinda greedy wanting everything for nothing and too lazy to change discs! Fine, I don't see anything wrong with seamless branching and such on "Disc 1" so place things like trailers, DVD-ROM features, Text items, etc.. on "Disc 2" and make more space for revamped coding on fewer layers that isn't so compressed (cramped) and can be easily read by all players (hence DreamWorks comment stating you have to give and take if you want a bunch of stuff on one disc). [This message has been edited by Czar (edited 02-08-2001).]

02-09-2001, 12:17 AM	#13 (permalink)
tomdkat Official Forum Warmonger "Dial Tone" Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hayward, CA, USA	You know, I have the ultimate solution to this problem. If you guys all go out and trade in your DVD players for the Pioneer Elite DV-37 then you won't ever have anymore problems and your lives will be much improved! :-) (Of course, I'm only joking.....) Peace.....

02-09-2001, 08:40 AM	#15 (permalink)
*1138* Producer/Admin Careful, or I'll ban myself... Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: San Jose, CA	A DVD has the exact same amount of info in every single spot. It's just zipping along read 'high' or 'low' from each individual pit. There's no variation in information density. Thus, the percent of space on a disc used, no matter the content, has nothing to do with incompatibilities. It's just the meaning of the information that matters, not where it is on the disc. As a side note, hopefully every single DVD uses all of it's space anyway. Whatever the extras are not taking up should be deicated to rasing the bit rate of the video. ------------------ 1138 Hardware forum moderator \| DVDFile Forum Greeter Floyd is pink. Lando is a sex machine.

02-09-2001, 12:32 PM	#16 (permalink)
*chlngr1970* Producer/Admin Tenacious "OB" Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Spanaway Washington	I say that anything that causes the picture or sound quality to suffer is to much. They come first and are the reasons I am buying the film to begin with. You compress more to add meaningless "extras" then I will be disapointed. After all, I may only watch the extras once, and sometimes not at all. j ------------------ Co-Moderator Software Forum ~Rather than question the wisdom, question your own lack of understanding!~ My DVD Tracker page - Click Here to help get Say Anything on DVD!

03-11-2001, 04:33 AM	#17 (permalink)
sabbey Supporting Actor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Castro Valley, CA USA	I definitely think there is way too much on most discs these days. Sheesh, I have a hard enough time keeping up with all the featurettes, commentary and iso scores as it is. However, at the same time it's nice to know they are there! So, unless it makes the video real bad, I don't care if they put all of it on the disc. However, when there is that much to be included, it really is for the best to have an second disc for the bonus material. Such as the way Gladiator was released. Just as long as they don't do flippers! Argh, I hate those! Especially if it is just to get an pan&scan version of the film on the disc. IMO, those are just about worthless, much like DVD-18'! ------------------ Regards, Sean Robert Abbey